dog food

[nb11]

Beagled1:
I'm interested in the raw diet that you use. If you don't mind, can you tell more about exactly what you feed? How much/day? Have you ever watched the cost over time to a point where you can comment on a dollars per time period (day, week, or month)? With a raw diet, are you simply grabbing the 'on sale', nearly-out-of-date meat and putting it in your freezer? However much you are willing to type.... I'm interested in reading.
Thanks

[Beagled1]

Beagled1:
I'm interested in the raw diet that you use. If you don't mind, can you tell more about exactly what you feed? How much/day? Have you ever watched the cost over time to a point where you can comment on a dollars per time period (day, week, or month)? With a raw diet, are you simply grabbing the 'on sale', nearly-out-of-date meat and putting it in your freezer? However much you are willing to type.... I'm interested in reading.
Thanks

Cost really varies with raw - I try to keep as much as possible under $1 lb. Some meats are literally half the cost per pound than what I would pay on average for dry food, others are about the same as a decent quality dry feed. The staples I use are chicken leg quarters, which I can get for .59lb, lamb ribs for .99-$1.99 lb, and ground beef for about $1.99lb. The best deals will be from a butcher. I get lamb necks & fatty beef scraps usually a 10 lb box for $5-7. Other meats I feed are chicken hearts/gizzards, turkey legs cut up (I cut out the bone and make that a meat meal) for a moderate price, usually ranging from .99 -$1.29. Also whiting fish (cooked) when I can get it. The price on that has been varying but on average is $1.59 lb now. Not too bad for fish, and they don't get it very often, just to add variety or as a topping on the days I do feed dry kibble. Those days are getting less & less becuase even though it is cheaper in the long run to use dog food, I am literally at the point where it's either we do all raw OR just get out of dogs. The problems are getting that bad. I have tried feeds from grocery store like Dog Chow, Purina ONE, Iams to top of the line - Wellness, Timberwolf - to mid road, Nutro, Eukanuba, Evolve. I have bitches not coming into heat, puppies getting Pano (which is CURED by raw feeding & some aspirin, btw), bald spots, filthy teeth ... It's getting too much for me to not do raw anymore.

I do know some raw feeders who are able to get leftover parts or buy direct from farmers at a GREAT discount! I'm a city slicker, lol, so I can't really do that, but I am trying to find a co-op in my area to reduce the cost. We are looking to move sometime in the next year, and I'm actually planning a move around where I can find a good raw feeding co-op. Not kidding, lol. So most of what I get is grocery store sales and the rest is from the butcher. I also go to a natural foods market once a month and go begging the butchers there for meat scraps ... you'd be surprised how much free raw scraps I come away with If you are thinking of doing raw, check out local supermarkets and note the prices of their meats. Not pork chops or sirloin, but the cuts that are not popular with people like leg quarters, organ meats, turkey or chicken backs, lamb necks/ribs, etc. Anything that is a meaty bone is good, but avoid weight bearing bones such as hige turkey leg bones, beef necks/ribs, or marrow bones.

Other things I feed are extras like egg yolks, oatmeal, corn meal, rice, yogurt, fish or flax oil ... they even get healthy table scraps. Everything I buy for the dogs is generic except the oats. In that case I buy Quaker because the store brand got them (and us) VERY sick.

I used to just make room in my freezer but have 12 dogs now so we did give in and get a small freezer for the basement. I got it for $50 off Craigslist about 2 yrs ago. Right now I am even looking to get a meat grinder for my pups. I have been cooking meat & pureeing it for my litters - they get weaned onto that, then I mix the meat with kibble as they get older. If I could get raw bony parts for the grinder, that would cut the cost of feeding the litters, because the ground meat is what adds up. I don't keep track of everything but in general have a good idea how much I spend. For 12 dogs (11 Beagles & one 65lb mutt) I spend an average of $6 per day - for all of them. Some days, it's only around $3, because I will give one meal in the a.m. and some yogurt, fruit, oatmeal, or egg yolk just to keep their stomach's full. This is usually when I see they are getting porky around the middle That's another thing. They gain weight quickly on raw. You don't have to pile up the food, a little goes a long way, so long as the diet is balanced overall. In the summer they barely eat anything and even tho it's high protein, there is very little strain on their kidneys, becuase of the mositure content in the raw. They are almost never thirsty. Dry food causes dehydration, it makes them drink buckets in the summer

Hope that answered some of your questions! WOuld be happy to elaborate if you have any other ?'s

[TheLittleBlackBook]

So many people complain about the price of kibble today, and that is because it's expensive. Even the "low budget" cheap feeds are getting expensive, and to add insult to injury these feeds are terrible for dogs nutrtionally. Feeding dogs cheap kibble is tantamount to feeding your children the dryest McDonald's French fries for their entire lives. Sooner or later, they will have serious health problems.

The simple fact is, no kibbled diet is as good as feeding a proper raw diet. And even most of the so-called "premium" kibbles have rice, corns, etc. in them ... and then cost over $1.00/lb. Worse, even the WalMart cheapies (i.e., Ol' Roy) are now costing $0.50/lb for what is little more than a bag of dried corns, glutens, soys, etc.

I am offering for your consideration a raw diet that is even cheaper to feed than Ol' Roy, can likewise be obtained at WalMart, but that offers a hundred times better nutrition. I will admit that this diet is not a "premium" RAW diet, but a low budget raw diet for larger kennel situations that are trying to keep their costs down, and yet still wish to provide their animals decent nutrition. The big claim that larger kennel operations always cite as a reason for not feeding raw is "cost" and "convenience."

Well, feeding raw is always going to be a bit more inconvenient than feeding kibble, there is no way around that, but I have made this formula as convenient as I can (as again you can get everything at WalMart). It is likewise as cost-effective as it can be (less per-lb than even than Ol' Roy). Keep in mind, individual prices may differ, but at my local WalMart, Ol' Roy is now $20.88 for 40 lb (which is $0.52/lb), and the following raw diet I am listing can be put together for only $0.50/lb. Here are the items:





Food Item.............................Cost Per Meal

Raw Chicken Quarters (8 oz)..................$0.290
1 Cup White Rice (8 oz)........................$0.087
Whole Egg (2 oz)................................$0.121
Plain Yogurt (1.2 oz)............................$0.079
1 Tsp Lard (1/6th oz)...........................$0.013
½ Vitamin Pill (0 oz)............................$0.014

19.2 oz meal........................................ $0.60 = Total Cost


SUPPLIES
* WalMart offers 10-lb bags of chicken quarters for $5.78, which pans-out to be only about $0.58/lb.
* You can get 20 lb of Matma white rice for $13.12 at WalMart also. Keep in mind that 1/3 cup of rice grains makes a full cup of cooked rice (after you add 2/3-cup of water and heat it). There are 50.5 cups of rice grains in the 20-lb sack, which after adding water make 151.5 cups of rice for $13.12, making each cup of rice cost only $0.087 (just under nine cents a cup).
* You can also get a carton of 60 (5-dozen) eggs for $7.24 (which comes to $0.97/lb), and each egg weighs about 2 oz (or about 12.1 cents per egg).
* You can buy a quart of "Great Value" plain yogurt for about $1.57 each (which is about $0.79/lb), and it has been my experience that you can scoop out about 20 heaping tablespoons per container, which is about 7.9 cents per serving.
* You can also get a bottle of 300 Equate Multi-Vitamin pills for $8.42. Since a little dog doesn’t need the full horse pill, you can cut each vitamin in half, which means you get 600 multi-vitamins for just over eight bucks (or $0.014/pill). The best way to feed the half-vitamin pill is to stuff it in a teaspoon of lard.
* You can get a 4-lb tub of Armour Lard for $4.82, and since 4 lb = 64 oz, and since 1 tsp = 1/6th of an ounce, this means you get 384 teaspoon servings for less than five bucks, or $0.013 per serving (just over one cent).

This means the above meal would cost 29 cents + 8.7 cents + 12.1 cents + 7.9 cents + 1.3 cents + 1.4 cents which would equal a total cost of 60.4 cents for 19.2 oz of feed, which translates to just over $0.030/ounce—or just over $0.50/lb—and it’s still a better meal compared to just about any commercial kibble.





Just think about it, you can shop at WalMart and feed your dogs a low budget raw diet for less than what it costs to feed Ol’ Roy, the lousiest feed on the market they sell there, and yet this diet is better for your dogs than virtually any high-end kibble. You don't need to go to butchers, slaughterhouses, or any other inconvenient spot for many folks ... you can get all of these things right at WalMart.

Just purchase a crock pot for the rice (also at WalMart), in a size commensurate with the number of dogs you have (with beagles, you'd probably only need HALF of everything listed here), and you will be saving money AND feeding your dogs better.

Again, I do admit there are raw diets better than this (no rice, etc); but rice provides a good filler to keep the weight on, and my purpose here was to provide a LOW BUDGET ("anyone can get it") raw diet for larger kennel situations.

All you need is a meat cleaver, the crock pot, and a cutting board. Lay the number of eggs, vitamins, chicken pieces out there ... and stack a buncha bowls ... and you can feed a yard of dogs better than any kibble ... for LESS MONEY than any kibble. Regarding how much to feed,the basic guideline is to feed approximately 1.5% to 2% of each dog’s body weight daily. This breaks down to the following matrix:

20 lb dog: 4.8 to 6.4 oz.
25 lb dog: 6.0 to 8.0 oz.
30 lb dog: 7.2 to 9.6 oz.
35 lb dog: 8.4 to 11.2 oz.
40 lb dog: 9.6 to 12.8 oz.
45 lb dog: 10.8 to 14.4 oz.
50 lb dog: 12.0 to 16.0 oz.
55 lb dog: 13.2 to 17.6 oz.
60 lb dog: 14.4 to 19.2 oz.
Etc.

Since beagles are little dogs, you can really cut the rice out if you want, as between a chicken breast, yogurt, egg, lard, and vitamin pill, they should be good to go

Regarding the eggs, the most nutritious way to serve eggs is soft-boiled. Prolonged feeding of raw egg white can cause a biotin deficiency, so the white being cooked is preferred in this case; and yet the yolk is more nutritious fed raw. For this reason, cooking the eggs in the shell for 2-3 min cooks the while, but leaves the yolk still runny and at its most nutritious. (For the photo I peeled the egg, but in real life I crack it in half and scoop-out with a spoon )

If you are wondering about the vegetables, I just bought a big vegetable juicer (again, also at WalMart) and after I am done mixing all kinda vegetable for me & the family to drink, I just add a couple of tablespoons of the processed vegetable pulp to the doggies' feed too ... that way you can use your vegetables that you buy twice, once to feed your family and then give the discarded pulp to give your doggies

Hope this helps,




.

[S.R.Patch]

Also, raw takes longer to digest than the cooked kibble. I know packs who only feed every other day(4 out of 7) during the week in summer.
The thing with raw, unless you fed individually the hogs would get more than their share. You have to stay amongst them to prevent fighting while they eat and if you scatter it out on the floor before allowing them in, it keeps some from guarding the pile for a fight.
I don't like chicken on the bone except wings and backs when feeding, then pour the water off onto oatmeal instead of rice...imho... This all has to be allowed to cool and thicken as hounds can't take a hot meal like we can... I get to enjoy the chicken legs and thighs...

[Lusaka]

@The Little Black Book

Sounds like a great diet! Just have a couple quick Q's. Have you ever had problems with the raw chicken being contaminated w/bacteria (salmonella, ect)? Is the lard that nutritious for them or is it just to get the pill down? Oh, and I've heard that human vitamins can cause damage to the lining of the digestive system, liver and kidneys. (Mainly because of the iron.) But some people say their not harmful. Any thoughts?

Thanks so much for any advise!

[Lusaka]

Well, I ended up answering all my q's on my own....but I'm still wondering about the lard.

[TheLittleBlackBook]

Also, raw takes longer to digest than the cooked kibble.

This is flatly false.

Dogs process raw meats w/in 4 hours, but kibbles take them 12-24+ hours to process.

And when it comes out the other end, there almost is no stool out of dog fed raw (because he uses it all up) ... and what little stool is produced by a raw-fed dog is rock-hard and nearly odorless ... whereas there are piles of loose, stinky stool (several times a day) that come out of a dog fed kibble.

I know packs who only feed every other day(4 out of 7) during the week in summer.
The thing with raw, unless you fed individually the hogs would get more than their share. You have to stay amongst them to prevent fighting while they eat and if you scatter it out on the floor before allowing them in, it keeps some from guarding the pile for a fight.

I agree, and I would never feed any group of dogs a big tub of feed together, for similar reasons, regardless of whether it's kibble or raw. There is no way to ensure proper amounts, unless you just feed so much all the dogs are fat and walk off eventually. But I don't like fat dogs, so I feed every dog individually, and optimally, in accordance with that animal's needs.

But you are right dogs (and pups) are more likely to fight over raw, because it is simply what they want and need more so than any kibble.

I don't like chicken on the bone except wings and backs when feeding, then pour the water off onto oatmeal instead of rice...imho... This all has to be allowed to cool and thicken as hounds can't take a hot meal like we can... I get to enjoy the chicken legs and thighs...

I agree with the heat, if I use rice (which I really don't during the summer anyway, only in winter to help add weight). But when I put a cup of rice in there, I just add cool water over it all to cut down on the time it takes to get them their meal.

Dogs fed raw will also have MUCH LESS need for drinking water during the day. Raw chicken is actually 60% water. So if you're feeding 8 oz of "chicken," you're really feeding 4.8 oz water, 2 oz of fat, and only 1.2 oz of protein. So the dogs actually get much of the moisture content they need from the raw meat itself. This is as nature intended!

By contrast, if you feed 8 oz of dry 26% kibble, you're feeding 2 oz of protein, 1.6 oz of fat, 4 oz of carbs, and only 0.4 oz of water (which is 1/10th the water that raw meat provides). Feeding kibble actually dehydrates dogs. Anyone who's fed raw for a long time will tell you a dog who eats raw will hardly touch its water bowl, while a dog who eats dry kibble will drink 10x more water ... they quite literally have to!

In nature, wild dogs don't have a water source next to them 24/7 and they would die of thirst very quickly, even if they had all the kibble they wanted. (Especially!). However, when a wild dog eats a pound of "killed animal," the reality is well over half of what he's got is water ... in fact a wild rabbit is 76% water




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@The Little Black Book
Sounds like a great diet! Just have a couple quick Q's. Have you ever had problems with the raw chicken being contaminated w/bacteria (salmonella, ect)?

Never. By keeping the meat frozen until use, and then by keeping it in sealed tupperware plastic containers in the fridge, I have never encountered any spoiling. I use a bleach-cleaner on my counters and utensils when finished, and when the tupperware container is empty, I bleach it as well. I have never had a problem myself and have never had a sick dog. Dogs can eat virtually anything "dead" without a problem, even rotten road kill. Their resistance to any form of bacteria is much, much greater than ours.

Is the lard that nutritious for them or is it just to get the pill down?

To get the pill down and to provide a source of energy. Dogs perform much better on animal fats and oils than carbs. Again, the rice is really just a low-budget way to keep weight on in the winter. In summer, I feed no carbs, only fats. Right now, I am not using lard at all, but salmon oil. It is much more expensive, but it is a better oil source. Flax oil and wheat germ oil are good too. Even though wheat is not good for a dog as a carb source, the wheat germ OIL is the best source of Vitamin E of any oil, which is very important for reproductive fertility.

Next week, I will go back to the lard and the vitamin pill

Oh, and I've heard that human vitamins can cause damage to the lining of the digestive system, liver and kidneys. (Mainly because of the iron.) But some people say their not harmful. Any thoughts?
Thanks so much for any advise!

Vitamins are vitamins ... there is no such thing as "human" vitamins

I think what is probably being said is that the AMOUNT of vitamins for a 180 lb human is going to be more than what a little doggie needs. Certain fat-soluble vitamins can build-up toxicities if overdosed. This is why I cut my pills in half (or, for beagles, I guess you could even do it in quarter-sizes). But I do not give them every day, necessarily. I feed a rotational diet. The above diet is what I use most of all; but if I kill a deer or a rabbit or goat, etc., then I will subtitute those meats.

The idea for a meat grinder is also good, especially one powerful enough to process bones. If you are able to process an entire, raw whole animal (excluding pork), and grind it all up into a mulch, that would be THE optimal diet a dog would need to eat ... as that is what they were designed to eat by nature

[allniter]

why not PORK --you use the lard - all this info in THE LITTLE BLACK BOOK -thanks allniter

[TheLittleBlackBook]

why not PORK --you use the lard - all this info in THE LITTLE BLACK BOOK -thanks allniter

Yes, this is just one diet in the book, but why do you compare the lard to pork?

Lard is just a fat source and poses no danger. Dogs process fats much, much more efficiently than we humans.

The reason raw pork poses a danger is because pigs get a special worm called trichinosis. It is harder to kill than regular worms and it can be fatal. This is why the jews of old time called pork "unclean food," as many people died eating pork that was not fully-cooked. This is why all pork is cooked well done, unlike steak.

For that matter, raw freshwater fish can be bad for dogs. Sometimes fish contain liver flukes that will infest a dog. These likewise do not die to standard worming dosages. Some raw salmon can also contain a protozoa parasite that produces a condition called "salmon poisoning" that can actually kill dogs. The protozoa seems to affect only dogs, not other kinds of animal.

For these reasons, I do not recommend feeding either raw pork or raw fish to dogs ...

[allniter]

LITTLE BLACK BOOK ---Thank you ---I know lard comes from PORK that is why I ask --but you have to render to get the lard --so fresh pork makes sence now ---thanks again --I'm going to get the book as soon as I can sale some eggs to get the money ---

[bluecollar beagler]

So when you mix these foods up do you make enough to feed for a week at a time or do you do this on a daily basis?
im very interested in trying the raw diet for a month and see how it works....

something else, are you feeding this once a day or twice a day????

[Beagled1]

So when you mix these foods up do you make enough to feed for a week at a time or do you do this on a daily basis?
im very interested in trying the raw diet for a month and see how it works....

something else, are you feeding this once a day or twice a day????

Everyone does it different, but I make up food for the week. I do it a little differently than LittleBlackBook, though. I don't feed veggies at all and will mostly give oatmeal. The oatmeal I give raw, just soaked in hot water so no cooking and very little preperation for that. I do try to buy in bulk as often as possible, and will ration out a day's worth for everyone in indivigual ziplocs, and defrost as needed. So the night before I just defrost the dog's meat in the fridge. I add oats maybe 2-3x weekly, just scoop in a tablespoon or two in the bowl. I don't use multivitamins but do feed more organ/red meats and occasionally supplement with either flaxseed or fish oil for Omega 3s ... you will need to balance the Omega 6 in the chicken with something. Either lamb, fish, eggs or fish oil.

It's VERY improtant in a raw diet that there be some form of red meat at least once a week - there WILL be skin & coat problems because chicken is very high in Omega 6 and no zinc. Still, a raw diet shouldn't be a tremandous amount of prep work, it will seem that way in the begininning but usually is quick and easy to do. Not as easy as pouring kibble in a bowl, but it shouldn't be complicated, either. I feed mine 2x daily, usually a larger meal in the morning, and something smaller at night. But I even did two meals per day with kibble ...

The key to a raw diet is to have a basic understanding of the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids a dog requires. Once you have that, the dogs will get a balanced diet. Before you plunge into raw, do some light reading on the subject ... the best book on raw, IMHO, is one by Kymythy Schultze. It's brief, easy to read, and cheap But it gives a run down of what vitamins are in what foods so if you follow that guide deficiencies will not be a problem. It also gives sample menus so if just starting, that is a big help.
http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Nutrition ... 1561706361

Also, check out: http://www.rawlearning.com The author is a successful Australian breeder of Portugese Water Dogs.

[TheLittleBlackBook]

LITTLE BLACK BOOK ---Thank you ---I know lard comes from PORK that is why I ask --but you have to render to get the lard --so fresh pork makes sence now ---thanks again --I'm going to get the book as soon as I can sale some eggs to get the money ---

Heh-heh-heh, thanks




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So when you mix these foods up do you make enough to feed for a week at a time or do you do this on a daily basis?
im very interested in trying the raw diet for a month and see how it works....
something else, are you feeding this once a day or twice a day????

It is pretty much schedule-dependent, so it would really be up to you. Myself, I individually make each meal daily. It is just part of my daily routine that I enjoy

I feed only once a day. There are many opinions on this, but most breeders whose dogs have to perform prefer to feed once a day, at the same time every day. It is easier to regulate a dog's metabolism this way. It also is easier to predict when they are going to be "empty" ... as a full dog is useless if he is expected to hunt, race, etc.

Having a pet is something else, but if you want your dogs to be at their sharpest, you will hunt them empty (not "starving," but completely empty), which is best obtained by a once-a-day feeding schedule.

One thing you will notice after feeding raw, for even less than 1 week, is the dramatic decrease in stool output and how hard and tiny each stool is. You will also see your dogs lose any excess fat off their body, and become much leaner and much-much more alert and "on point" ...




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Everyone does it different, but I make up food for the week. I do it a little differently than LittleBlackBook, though. I don't feed veggies at all and will mostly give oatmeal. The oatmeal I give raw, just soaked in hot water so no cooking and very little preperation for that. I do try to buy in bulk as often as possible, and will ration out a day's worth for everyone in indivigual ziplocs, and defrost as needed. So the night before I just defrost the dog's meat in the fridge. I add oats maybe 2-3x weekly, just scoop in a tablespoon or two in the bowl. I don't use multivitamins but do feed more organ/red meats and occasionally supplement with either flaxseed or fish oil for Omega 3s ... you will need to balance the Omega 6 in the chicken with something. Either lamb, fish, eggs or fish oil.
It's VERY improtant in a raw diet that there be some form of red meat at least once a week - there WILL be skin & coat problems because chicken is very high in Omega 6 and no zinc. Still, a raw diet shouldn't be a tremandous amount of prep work, it will seem that way in the begininning but usually is quick and easy to do. Not as easy as pouring kibble in a bowl, but it shouldn't be complicated, either. I feed mine 2x daily, usually a larger meal in the morning, and something smaller at night. But I even did two meals per day with kibble ...
The key to a raw diet is to have a basic understanding of the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids a dog requires. Once you have that, the dogs will get a balanced diet. Before you plunge into raw, do some light reading on the subject ... the best book on raw, IMHO, is one by Kymythy Schultze. It's brief, easy to read, and cheap But it gives a run down of what vitamins are in what foods so if you follow that guide deficiencies will not be a problem. It also gives sample menus so if just starting, that is a big help.
http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Nutrition ... 1561706361
Also, check out: http://www.rawlearning.com The author is a successful Australian breeder of Portugese Water Dogs.

Nice to see another raw feeder ... and yes indeed everybody does it a little different

The diet I have posted is a "budget" diet designed to be better than kibble, convenient to obtain, while also being inexpensive. True, a person can spend more money and provide top-shelf ingredients (or even spend less, if he has the right contacts---a butcher or meat-rending plant---nearby). Heck, I know one blessed dogman in Idaho who gets 800-lb of raw beef organs and scrap meats/fats from a rending plant for only $60, which is less than $0.08/lb!

I wish I had it so good

But for the fellow who doesn't have such a meat resource, and who just wants to go to the store and get his ingredients for convenience, while not spending too much money, this is a pretty effective diet. The multivitamin in fact does cover the trace micronutrients, such as the zinc you mentioned, as well as most people's need for practical convenience---not to mention cost. The vitamin is only an extra penny to half-penny per serving, depending if it's split into halves or quarters The soft-boiled eggs are also a decent source of zinc, vitamins, as well as selenium.

There are differing views on the vegetables, true. I choose to provide them a few times a week, very finely diced, again to allow for trace nutrients, but also because I've never seen a dog that won't eat them. I do know people who choose not to feed any form of vegetables or carbs, ever, and their dogs look great also

Flax oil supplementation is very good thing to do, I agree, because of the great resource of Omega 3s it provides. You can buy it in 5-gallon tubs from

http://www.bulknaturaloils.com

No matter how you slice it, flax oil is expensive though. Buying it in 5-gallon barrels seems even more expensive ... at $165 a barrel ... but if you do the math it works out to be about $0.20 an ounce. By contrast, when you go to a vitamin store to buy flax oil at retail price, you're generally spending about $2.00 - $4.00 an ounce, which is 10-20x more expensive, ultimately. So if you have a lot of dogs buying those 5-gallon tubs sure saves you a lot in the end

Here is also an extremely useful resource to check your nutrition profiles:

http://www.nutritiondata.com

Great topic and happy feeding

[S.R.Patch]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

[dave404]

Due to keeping 20 + hounds for over 25 yrs and have been a heavy nite runner also these many yrs. and never could afford the costly dog food, i have fed ole yeller, pride,etc.. and my hounds all live 12-16 yrs old
So imo if a hound is run as hard as mine has been and still live that age, something is working right.