Epilepsy Question

[Checkpoint Beagles]

On the subject of epilepsy, I understand that there are a couple of types and that it’s fairly common in beagles. So much so, that there’s a beagle epilepsy foundation. If a bitch has a very mild touch of it, is she breedable? I guess as far as that goes, a male too. It’s obviously hereditary. Would you breed her or him? I’m just wondering why it’s so prevalent in beagles.

Tim

[high ridge joe]

Tim,
I know what you are feeling on this one..I have an outstanding female here that I will not breed due to seizures...I had bloodwork done after a day of running at the club,...she put on one hell of a show in the 85 deg heat....when we stopped for a drink of water at the barn and she walked away and began to swat at her right top side of her head...she fell into a seizure that she went in and out of 4 times lasting 30 min...I thought she was gonna die..but she pulled through...I myself will not breed a dog, male or female, if it has any type of seizures......vets can do bloodwork to give a more thorough idea of the problems and sometimes they can be controlled to an extent by meds..but they will have them forever.....There are some guys out there that are breeding these hounds and they know about the illness and they are not saying anything about it until someone gets a pup from them or a litter of pups that are bouncing around in their boxes like mexican jumping beans....sometimes the seizures do not show up until they are older..like 1 1/2 to 3 yrs old and some until they are 5 yrs of age...I do know of someone that claims they didnt know about their female having seizures until they were 5 yrs old..they had bred her 5 or 6 times up until that point....thats when you find out that that hounds mother had them also...its a nasty hereditary thing and sometimes you catch it early and sometimes you dont..but once you do..with good conscience and for the betterment of the breed..I wouldnt breed them.....Think about when you sell a pup from this questionable cross and the new pup owner down the road gets attached to this pup..it turns out to be a good dog and a valued family pet......then one day it has a seizure infront of you or the family,...they have to watch their dog go through it..then they get caught up with the financial end of it at the vet having to get blood tests don and possibly medication also...
Unfortunately its a no win situation...
I would try to (A) find a home for the dog..make the new owners aware of the problem...get the dog fixed......help them with information on dealing with this issue and move on......(B) keep the hound as a dog to use for running with other hounds..( provided it is that good an clean as a pup trainer...) or (C) even if you can do it...cull the dog..hard......
My female is now a pup trainer only....she is perfect for that at her age of 10 yrs...

Betterment of the breed...Betterment of the Breed....

see you at the club..will be running my hounds hard in a week or so...

joe t

[Beagled1]

On the subject of epilepsy, I understand that there are a couple of types and that it’s fairly common in beagles. So much so, that there’s a beagle epilepsy foundation. If a bitch has a very mild touch of it, is she breedable? I guess as far as that goes, a male too. It’s obviously hereditary. Would you breed her or him? I’m just wondering why it’s so prevalent in beagles.

Tim

No, unfortunately, she wouldn't be breedable Any forms of ideopathic epilepsy are a "knockout factor" when considering hounds for a breeding program. There are different types of seizures - some have small, infrequent ones known as petit mals, others have even milder ones called "auras", while others suffer from severe grand mals on a regular basis. While some are definitely not as bad or frequent as others, they are all genetic, and when a hound that is affected with a problem is bred, that problem does sometimes tend to become magnified in the pups (not always, but can occur) and it's a certainty that even if seizures do not run in the sire's line, the litter will produce at least half who will be affected themselves and 25% who are carriers, and another 25% who are both unaffected and do not carry the gene for the problem. The problem arises is that you now have half the litter who are going to become eplieltics, but you don't have a magic mirror to tell you which ones. You also don't have the magic mirror to show you which of the unaffected pups neither carry the gene for nor are affected with the disease. What that means is that if you breed one of the unaffected pups, you may very well be breeding a carrier who is now recessive for the gene & will be solidifying epilepsy in your bloodlines.

Now, since yor bitch is affected with the disease, she is considered to be dominant for that trait. When you breed a dog who carries the dominant gene, you run the risk of having more than 50% of those pups being affected ...

So what good has that breeding done for the breed, or your particular bloodline? You'll have a constant problem with epilepsy in your lines, and as I mentioned, even if you breed an unaffected pup, chances are he's recessive for the trait and will also produce that 50/25/25% equation of affected:unaffected:carrier pups in his litters. As an example, I can name a few dogs I know who are out of a bloodline that is known for producing epilepsy. The breeders are not breeding epileptic dogs, however, the problem is stubbornly still there. They have one dog (who is a show Ch. and doing well in the breed standings) who seems to be producing at least one epileptic pup in each of his litters, regardless of who he's bred to. THAT is how difficult it is to get epilepsy out, or at least lower the incidence just when you're dealing with recessice carriers. Don't breed an epileptic dog ...

[Beagled1]

B) keep the hound as a dog to use for running with other hounds..( provided it is that good an clean as a pup trainer...)


Betterment of the breed...Betterment of the Breed....

Just wanted to add, this is exactly what I did with my epileptic male, who is now 7 going on 8yrs. He's an awesome pup trainer, a bit on the slow side, which is just right for a young pup who wouldn't be able to keep up with a faster hound. Don't think of this as a genetic loss! My male is probably the best huntin' hound I have, but instead of breeding him, I have him teach the youngsters how it's done. They learn a lot by association, and I feel like his talent isn't getting wasted that way.

[Checkpoint Beagles]

Let's back up! I don't have have a bitch that's infected. The reason I asked the question was because of the post that asked about a dog that had some kind of attack and had made a low howling noise. A few people suspected epilepsy. This just got me to wondering about the dogs parents, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, every litter and their offspring from every dog related, both sides of the line. If you find one dog thats three or four years old and is infected, and find all of his/her relatives, we're talking thousands of dogs. How do you trace it? (almost every akc dog has a famous stud dog in the pedegree somewhere)

[high ridge joe]

Tim,
the line I used to run I was able to trace back to 1 female and 1 litter....Only way to trace it is to ask alot of questions about the females in your dogs pedigree...thats what I did....but that only works if everybody is being honest.....you are right...you might not get 100% away from a line that has this...so again..its a roll of the dice....



joe t

[Checkpoint Beagles]

JOE:

Sorry Joe, I mis-understood what you were saying, I also missed you a the meeting.

Tim

[high ridge joe]

Tim,

You had asked about the many dogs that could be out there from someone making a cross and how to trace them.....and I explained that the only way is to investigate and ask questions...I understood that YOU did not own a female or a dog like that....just trying to help others that read this post not fall into what I had fallen into..it isnt pretty nor is it fun to deal with...

I have been burned 2 times with this stuff....I hate to see it happen is all....

When I used the word "you" I meant anybody out there..not you in particular....

It was a very good question...

hope all is well on your end...

joe t

[Checkpoint Beagles]

Thanks Joe,

I was talking to a vet today. I had no idea how far spread it was. So common that that it is believed that most beagles are at a minimum a decendant of a carrier, if not a carrier themselves. You said you traced a line back to one bitch and a litter. One or both of her parents were carriers and every litter they produced, produced carriers.

Thanks again Joe
Tim