The American Beagler Forum

Posting this as feel in need to clear the air if you will about the post Check Your Patch Pedigree and comments such as these " Screw the fine pull the papers on every dog they have bred and any one else that has knowledge of it." and " AKC has been notified, they have all of the documentation, and I will do everything in my power to get the "breeder" and anyone else involved, banned for life from the AKC."

I was contacted a few days before this post was put on here by a couple of guys that said they were contacted by at least one person that made these comments and told that this was fix'n to come out , they were told the name of the breeder & kennel name as well as the alleged hound in question , my name was thrown in as well of maybe being involved or having knowledge of . To think I have any knowledge of this is assassin , if these alleged issue's are or aren't correct. I have no ill will or feeling toward these guys as I can & do understand the magnitude of this if true

I'll say this , I have never or would ever falsified any dog papers or litter paper . Nor do I now or ever had any knowledge of this going on , if I had I would have been the 1st put a stop to it , regardless of whom was doing it , PERIOD

All paperwork to dogs here are as true as I know it to be as well paperwork on all is up to date , all dogs are micro chipped and scanner on site.

I've had beagles near 50 years and have always been up front with all , as I take a lot of pride in my name , my kennel and the Patch Line.

It's my opion AKC will have the final say on this matter , since it's said they are involved.

At one time I had a bitch here from said post , if this is proven by AKC and papers are pulled I will do everything I can for those that got pups from here from her.

Lr, I hope a lot of people think the way you do. It takes a lot to make things right in this world anymore and it takes a good person to do the right thing. Even 13 years ago it was a different world and I would have never thought I would have beagle and hunting connections across the nation. I feel things happen, good people may make the wrong decisions every once in awhile. I hope I am not the only one who feels not all should be judged by association. The patch breeding can be top notch and I hope people don't start getting out of it and looking down it.

Later, dave

After thinking about this for a few days, I have serious doubts that the AKC is going to pull the papers on every dog decended from Plowboy's Frosty Patch. There are just too many, and the results would be to drive many registrations to other registrys, something the AKC cannot afford to do right now. Does anyond know of a case where the AKC canceled registration on 50-60 or more dogs?
Do I think they may do something? Probably. But I doubt it will result in wholesale cancellation of dog's registration. We'll just have to wait and see what shakes out. I'm not going to get real excited about it until I hear something from the AKC.
Yes, I have dogs in my kennel right now who have Frosty in their pedigree, and I sure don't want them turned into grade dogs, although they are just gun dogs, not field trial material. If they are, I'll deal with it. I don't know what I might do about the pups we sold that carry Frosty in their pedigree. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

davidc5936 writes; "I have serious doubts that the AKC is going to pull the papers on every dog descended from Plowboy's Frosty Patch. There are just too many, and the results would be to drive many registrations to other registries, something the AKC cannot afford to do right now. Does anyone know of a case where the AKC canceled registration on 50-60 or more dogs?"

David, you may be correct. Only time will tell what action they will take. Let me say this, should AKC not pull the papers on every dog that records state they descend from Frosty Patch, I would lose total faith in AKC. How can any Registry only partially enforce one of it's rules? AKC cannot afford to whitewash this thing. Should that happen, breeders would run to other Registries. Just too many instances of this kind of thing occurring in too many breeds. As for a case or cases, where AKC Registrations were canceled go to this URL, http://www.akc.org/about/secretarys_page.cfm there you will find about 8 years of history, month by month, on what action AKC has taken for similar violations.

I feel much sympathy for the victims of this alleged fraud but ...heaven forbid the fraud be covered up or ignored.

LR Patch wrote:Posting this as feel in need to clear the air if you will about the post Check Your Patch Pedigree and comments such as these " Screw the fine pull the papers on every dog they have bred and any one else that has knowledge of it." and " AKC has been notified, they have all of the documentation, and I will do everything in my power to get the "breeder" and anyone else involved, banned for life from the AKC."

my name was thrown in as well of maybe being involved or having knowledge of . To think I have any knowledge of this is assassin , if these alleged issue's are or aren't correct. I have no ill will or feeling toward these guys as I can & do understand the magnitude of this if true

I'll say this , I have never or would ever falsified any dog papers or litter paper . Nor do I now or ever had any knowledge of this going on , if I had I would have been the 1st put a stop to it , regardless of whom was doing it , PERIOD

All paperwork to dogs here are as true as I know it to be as well paperwork on all is up to date , all dogs are micro chipped and scanner on site.

I've had beagles near 50 years and have always been up front with all , as I take a lot of pride in my name , my kennel and the Patch Line.

It's my opion AKC will have the final say on this matter , since it's said they are involved.

At one time I had a bitch here from said post , if this is proven by AKC and papers are pulled I will do everything I can for those that got pups from here from her.

Randy,
I am so proud of you to stand upright and proclaim your honesty and integrity towards the Patch hounds and the honest nature of yourself to do the fair and right thing.
So kind of you to offer to help right the wrong that has been done.
I too have offered to help but need your help to accomplish this. Will you now allow my Lucy bitch to come back home so I can breed her to help with puppies.
After a year it would seem obvious our transaction cannot be fulfilled and with no payment in hand, I reserve the wright to change my mind.
I think Currdog will still help with the transport as he did getting her to you and you will still have nothing in the transportation cost.
I just need her back home as I know this has worried both of us and in the end will help others.
Thanks again, from one of your patch friends...

bill huttozac wrote:davidc5936 writes; "I have serious doubts that the AKC is going to pull the papers on every dog descended from Plowboy's Frosty Patch. There are just too many, and the results would be to drive many registrations to other registries, something the AKC cannot afford to do right now. Does anyone know of a case where the AKC canceled registration on 50-60 or more dogs?"

David, you may be correct. Only time will tell what action they will take. Let me say this, should AKC not pull the papers on every dog that records state they descend from Frosty Patch, I would lose total faith in AKC. How can any Registry only partially enforce one of it's rules? AKC cannot afford to whitewash this thing. Should that happen, breeders would run to other Registries. Just too many instances of this kind of thing occurring in too many breeds. As for a case or cases, where AKC Registrations were canceled go to this URL, http://www.akc.org/about/secretarys_page.cfm there you will find about 8 years of history, month by month, on what action AKC has taken for similar violations.

I feel much sympathy for the victims of this alleged fraud but ...heaven forbid the fraud be covered up or ignored.

I don't understand why you would lose total faith in the AKC if they don't cancel all these papers. Every other registry would register them in a heartbeat, no questions asked. It's not that they don't look like a beagle or they have shaggy hair or they want to herd sheep! Obviously, there is nothing but beagle blood in them. Since Frosty was DNA tested according to at least one post on here, I wouldn't be so sure that the AKC couldn't determine the sire from their DNA records and just correct the papers- they do that hundreds of times a month. When you see on the "Secretary's Page" that registrations have been corrected, thats what happened.

We'll see how it shakes out. I may be wrong, but I doubt you will see wholesale registrations canceled of this. Before DNA, how many times do you think this happened? I heard a rumor in the 1960's that one of most famous sires of all times was a grade dog found in some guys gun pack. No way to prove it then.

dave g wrote:Lr, I hope a lot of people think the way you do. It takes a lot to make things right in this world anymore and it takes a good person to do the right thing. Even 13 years ago it was a different world and I would have never thought I would have beagle and hunting connections across the nation. I feel things happen, good people may make the wrong decisions every once in awhile. I hope I am not the only one who feels not all should be judged by association. The patch breeding can be top notch and I hope people don't start getting out of it and looking down it.
Later, dave

Dave g,
As long as there are good people like Randy to speak out and do the right thing, people will respect, it's only when there's no discipline and everything turns into a feel good/hurt no feelings the people go away.

Buckruff has some hounds to be replaced and as soon as I can get Lucy back from Randy I'm gonna set him up. He's the one that brought Lehners Lucy here to be bred in the first place and has been one of my best friend gained from the patches...
He is the co-owner to Lehner's Lucy and can tell you who every hound bred and every pup whelped from her I'll bet or I know he can get the records from AKC with only a call.

After a year it would seem obvious our transaction cannot be fulfilled and with no payment in hand, I reserve the wright to change my mind.

Seriously?

Wow, you have more patience than I do.

Are there so many dishonest and self serving people in this country that our word or handshake means nothing anymore?

My Dad raised me, and I have my children, that when I'm gone from this earth, the only thing anyone will remember is that you were a man of your word and of good character, OR not.
Have so many become so self centered that we've lost the meaning of character, integrity, honesty?
Our country was founded on such words and a mans word meaning, it will be done.

After reading a lot of these posts of basically condoning swapping papers, forged papers, making pedigrees no better than what I use when I'm done in the outhouse. Making handshake agreements and not abiding by them, I think I'm going to listen to my Vet and start having all my hounds chipped.

I really don't want to believe that our country has become this way, but maybe I am just naive and am learning the hard way.

Swamp

davidc writes; "I don't understand why you would lose total faith in the AKC if they don't cancel all these papers. Every other registry would register them in a heartbeat, no questions asked. It's not that they don't look like a beagle or they have shaggy hair or they want to herd sheep! Obviously, there is nothing but beagle blood in them."
Well David, it is like this. Frankly, I don't care what other Registries do or how often the look the other way when conducting business. Obviously, you do not mind, but I do. AKC presents itself as a "stand up, no BS organization". I have registered my dogs with AKC and I expect them to maintain records in such a manner that I can stake my personal reputation on what they do. When they take my money, with that promise, I expect nothing less. Having said this, I believe that many, many other dog owners feel the same way.
Back to your comment:
You say Frosty was DNA profiled. It is my understanding that Frosty was not bred to Plowboys Digger Patch. This is the problem. Someone registered a litter from this cross that never happened. Registering a litter in this manner is fraud, fraud equals misrepresentation of the facts, misrepresenting the facts equals setting aside the transaction, setting aside the transaction means canceling registrations or change Certificates to "Conditional status."
Every dog that pup that was registered off of Frosty and Digger is on fraudulent papers as well as all of their descendants. David, because it is not my bloodline of dogs, I cannot agree with any Registry, doing nothing about scrubbing the data bank when fraud is brought to light. Next time, it may be your dogs or mine. Just food for thought.
You also said "It's not that they don't look like a beagle or they have shaggy hair or they want to herd sheep! Obviously, there is nothing but beagle blood in them."
One simply should not go by appearance alone. Throughout history, rape, robbery, and murder have been committed by well dressed, educated people. Obviously, there is nothing but human blood in them. Now, do we accept that in a civilized society? Being dishonest is one and the same be it about dog or man.

Bill,
Frosty and Digger are littermates, sired falsely by my Sport.
Other than that, excellent points.

Any other registry will accept them, that is correct.
That is why most seek AKC papers though, because they are THE standard in registered dogs, and they don't open register dogs.

Ask yourself, why do most of us want the AKC papers?
I want to keep them up strictly for lineage and for the reason above.

Bill Bredemeier once told me, AKC papers are the only ones that count because they are the oldest registry and they don't open register.
He also said, AKC papers make hounds worth more $$.

Maybe the reason this was all done to begin with.

Swamp

Swampman --- Thank you for setting me straight on the relationship of Frosty, Digger and Sport.

Charles ,
Of coarse she can come home just as I told you in December , she belongs to you !!
However I do want it noted that this deal was not completed because I just decided not to pay for her as your post may leave some to believe , but rather in the begining some hold up on paperwork from AKC on Horn's DNA testing , and I'm sorry to open old wounds ,but your loosing Bubblegum , Charlie and Wheeler and you wanting and or needing her back for breeding which I completely understand , as these things were no fault of ours and as not trying to make it appear that your the blame , some hard-headedness on my part , all of which I have documented from our email's as I'm sure you do as well . Agreed ?

It's a great thing what we as men can get done if we work together yourself as I just want all-things to be right with all regardless the mountain to overcome , that I truely believe .

Now I've got a what I think is a better plan to get her to you , I've got a trip planned to be near your neck of the woods in November on a hunt , at this point the only thing not nailed down is the exact date , of coarse it will be after Nov. 5th when IN. season opens . Seeing her heat is in Jan. this should work real good and we want need to bother Rod . Things are 99.9 % forsure , but we can get her there before breeding time.

As I said , I've had beagles near 50 years and have always been up front with all , as I take a lot of pride in my name , my kennel and the Patch Line .

Bill-
I should have stated "there's only wolf in there", since all beagles are 100% wolf. All domestic dogs are 100% wolf. Research shows that 80% of all dog breeds were developed since the Victorian era.
Do I think the AKC should just shrug it's shoulders and walk away?- No. But then I also know that it is impossible to accurately track any bloodline back any further than when DNA testing began, and that wasn't very long ago. In many cases the dogs that will be impacted by this are 4 or 5 generations removed from the dog in question. I still contend that it may be possible for the AKC to correct the pedigrees because of DNA records in their databank.
Take a look at the pedigree of any dog you own, and ask yourself how confident you are that it is perfectly accurate back 4 or 5 generations. To believe it is you have to bet that no one made and error in paperwork, no one made an error about which male dog bred which female, no one forgot the facts of a breeding and that no one got confused about the identy of a dog. If you have been around for any length of time, and been around any of the large breeders, especially of some years ago, you will admit that the chance for errors is huge.
I'm not saying it should be excused, but I think it has to be kept in context.

Here's the answer to what will probably happen. This is straight from the AKC website:

Conditional Registration
The AKC’s DNA programs have resulted in an unprecedented level of accuracy to the AKC registry by evaluating the parentage of many AKC dogs and litters. However, for that very small percentage of registered dogs that are found, often years after birth, to have an unknown ancestor, the AKC has canceled the registration.

To maintain genetic diversity, improve customer relations, and still maintain the accuracy of the registry, the Board of Directors approved the concept to allow the issuing of Conditional registration certificates and pedigrees, rather than canceling the registrations of a dog, all of its littermates and all of their progeny in these cases.

This concept was discussed at the September 2005 Delegate Meeting where AKC’s Consultant on DNA Science and Technology Dr. Elaine Ostrander recommended its implementation.

Below are the answers to some questions you may have. We welcome additional feedback at dna@akc.org.

Conditional Registration Certificate
Conditional Registration Pedigree

What is a Conditional Registration and Pedigree?

When unknown parentage is indicated via DNA testing, the status of the registration will be downgraded to “conditional” until a three generation pedigree is established. “Unknown” will be noted on the registration or pedigree for the ancestor in question. This will only occur in cases where the dogs are believed to be purebred, but a registered parent is found to be incorrect.

The documents will have a different colored border and will be clearly labeled as Conditional. Also, a new registration number will be issued so that people familiar with AKC registration numbers can tell at a glance that the registration is different. For example, a dog initially registered as TN123456/01 would be registered with Conditional registration as QT123456/01. Thus, these dogs will be clearly noted as Conditional by their registration number, similar to the ‘Z’ used in the registration number for descendants of white Doberman Pinschers. In addition, the word “Conditional” will be boldly stated on the registration certificate which will have a yellow border (compared to purple for standard registrations or orange for limited).

Why is this measure being adopted?
AKC continues to collect a rapidly growing number of DNA samples. By the close of 2006, the AKC had more than 425,000 DNA profiles from 196 AKC and FSS breeds in its database.

With our Frequently Used Sires requirement, many dogs are DNA profiled when they are three or four years old and have sired seven or more litters. AKC evaluates their parentage, and if incorrect parentage is found, it is sometimes not possible to determine the correct parentage of the litter because a potential sire is deceased or unable to be located. Currently, in these cases the registrations of the litter and its members and their offspring are canceled. A single case of an unknown sire can result in the cancellation of hundreds of AKC registrations. The negative reaction, especially from owners who registered their dog with AKC only to later have it canceled, is very damaging to AKC’s image.

Again, it is important to note that Conditional registration is only to be issued in cases where the dog appears and is believed to be purebred – it is just that one of the dog’s ancestors is unknown.

Why are Conditional Pedigrees considered the solution?

The AKC Board, staff, and Dr. Elaine Ostrander (consultant to AKC on DNA science and technology issues) have carefully and thoroughly considered this issue, weighing the benefits and drawbacks to various solutions.

In her September 2005 address to the Delegate Body, Dr. Ostrander recommended that AKC adopt this solution to allow for informed breeder decisions while maintaining a large population for genetic diversity.

The conclusion reached by all is that totally removing purebred dogs from the gene pool may not be the best thing for the breed populations or for AKC’s relationship with dog owners. By fully disclosing the incident of unknown parentage, breeders and dog owners can make their own, informed opinions about whether or not they will buy or breed a certain dog.

Will the registrations ever revert to Full?

Current policy for introducing breeds into the AKC registry requires a three-generation pedigree on each dog. This policy will also apply to dogs when an "unknown" dog is found in its pedigree based on a failed DNA test. An individual dog's registration can be reverted to regular registration status with the completion of a DNA sample verifying parentage of that individual dog and confirming three generations of DNA-verified parentage. Returning to full registration after three generations of verified parentage is also in line with the acceptance of imported dogs with three-generation pedigrees from the country of origin.

Can these dogs be bred?

If both sire and dam have AKC DNA profiles, the litter may be registered. Litters already registered when the registration is converted will be changed to Conditional status.

What about event participation?

A dog with Conditional registration may participate in any event in which PAL/ILP dogs may participate. Additionally, beginning July 1, 2010, if the dog has a DNA profile recorded in the AKC DNA database the dog may compete in Field Trials. They may not participate in Conformation events, and titles previously earned in these events will be removed from the dog’s record. In the fourth generation of DNA-profiled parentage, the registration will revert to Full and the dog may participate in any AKC event.

Is the breeder penalized?

The discipline policies have not changed. When incorrect parentage is discovered via compulsory DNA programs, such as the Frequently Used Sires requirement or the Compliance Audit Program, the breeder is subject to a graduated schedule of penalties. When the DNA is on file on a voluntary basis, discipline is not applied.

What about dogs which are not purebred?

Conditional registration is only for dogs that appear to be purebred and had full AKC registration prior to the DNA exclusions being found. If the dogs in question do not appear to be purebred, an impure breeding complaint can be made to the Impure Breeding Committee, which will open an inquiry and take appropriate action.

Never seen a lack of papers run a rabbit either but I have seen papers used in breeding programs successfully and raise the price of the dog due to the increased likelihood of predictable results.