Dog down...with kidney failure...

[warddog]

Alabama John, I have no idea what these cattle had been wormed with. My first experiance with this was right after I first started in Food Inspection about 24 years ago. I was working a cattle slaughter in Anderson, Indiana (old Emge Packing) when I was told that a load of test cattle from Perdue University were coming in to be slaughtered. The test animals had been feed a real HOT or high protein feed and the control animals a regular protein intensity feed. I worked with the grad students collecting liver/kidney samples and noticed a large quanity of them were burned up with abcesses, white parasitic looking leisons, telangiectasis, petechial hemorrhagic and ordegenerated liver kidney tissue. All of these cattle were fat, healthy appearing both on ante mortem and post mortem inspections. The only thing differing among them on post mortem was the ones feed the high protein feed had the livers and or kidneys durned up. I have seen this numerous times in the last 24 years of inspecting cattle and can tell almost every time when an animal has been on a high protein feed for any period of time by the appearance of the liver and or kidneys. No BS just facts. Not every alcoholic has cirrhosis of the liver either but what is the first question asked by a physician when cirrhosis is detected?

[Alabama John]

Sorry for so many comments, but this is a subject that is very bothersome.

Warddog, Thanks for the info and I for one will cut the protein down. I never feed above 26% in winter and 21% the rest of the year. Hope that is not too much. Seeing is believing and you've seen!

Guest, we run in swamps, along creeks and rivers so dogs are wet all the time and drink as often as they want.

An old friend that died years ago before all this modern medical technology, taught me this belief, and our old Vet backs him up on it. Dog feeding pans left out on the ground or any where rats or mice can lick them and pee in them creates a poison to dogs that affects their kidneys and livers to the point of being deadly. He advises rinsing them out before all feedings as dried pee or saliva cannot always be seen.

Could that be the difference in your two brothers? One had Rats, one didn't?

Good comments from all!

[Aaron Bartlett]

Alabama John



Joined: 27 Jul 2002
Posts: 292
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject:

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Sorry Clyde, that is a bad thing to have happen. No remedy at this point that I know of.

Can I ask one question for my own information, not placing blame anywhere? Did you worm with Ivermectin?

John

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Alabama John,
I know what your tring to get at and in a small way I will agree with you but for the most part im going to have to say your assumptions are unfounded. I will tend to agree that given unproperly Ivomec could possibly affect the liver and/or kidney's. There are many folks that give ivomec that give it straight out of the bottle. Doing this, in my opinion, is very hard, if not impossible to give to a dog without overdosing.
On the other hand, if mixed properly it is alot easier to give the correct amount. I buy Ivomec already mixed in a bottle that says HEARTWORM PREVENTION from a Vet and it comes in a bottle with the Vets name, address, phone number and directions on how to administer. If Ivomec is the problem why then is it in most all the other Heartworm Prevention? I say its more the way its given.
A few years back when all of a sudden Ivomec was bad to give to a dog I started asking Vets what they thought about Ivomec. The results were about 50/50 and in my opinion the 50% that said Ivomec was not to be given to a dog were the same 50% that were more concerned about what they can do for you or your dog to get in your wallet the deepest.
Like I said........This is just my opinion...............

[Alabama John]

Aaron

I'll bet you are right in the misuse of Ivomec theory. Even on these boards, remember when there used to be wide diferences in folks formulas for its use and the methods?

Some around here squirt it in the mouth for worms and put it on the back for fleas and ticks and others give it various ways and they differ with each other on which mixture is best and which is too much. Know one man that makes an applicator out of cable and rags and every time his dogs go in the dog house, it applies Ivermic to their backs.

I have a friend in Tennesse that uses it and has had no problem. His formula and mixture is what most on here use now, and my vet too.

One thing is clear, there is something wrong that used to not be. Have we bred the kidney and liver failure gene too strong accidently in our beagles while breeding to set desired traits by breeding too close? I have one friend that holds that theory. Set the good and you'll be settiing the bad, sometimes unseen also.

WHAT IS THE CAUSE?

We used to use Coprice and sometimes Creosote for a wormer and it turned our dogs teeth yellow orange and rotted them out. Temporarily poisoned the dog, almost to death, but got the worms. They lived long lives.

I'm leaning way toward Warddog and what he's actually seen. Seeing is believing!

I don't know how a researcher could get a better cross section of Beaglers and Beagles than on this board. Wish one Vet school like Auburn (Isn't there also one at Cornell?)lol would use us in a questionnaire and search our worming methods and formulas and feed practices for the answer.

[Ted Peercy]

I read somewhere that the third leading cause of kidney failure in a dog is impure drinking water. They can drink out of a mudhole occasionally, and filter it in their kidneys, but not everyday.
John, I read in a vet book that high protein is usually a problem, especially if they have weak kidneys.
I have a friend that has lost most of his dogs from ages 3 to 7 years. He uses Ivomec in pretty strong doses.
One of my vets, that has a kennel himself, told me to use 98 cc's of propolene glycol with 2 cc's of Ivomec and give 1 cc for each 25 pounds of body weight, once a month. That's a very weak dosage, but he said it took very little Ivomet to control heartworms.

[S.R.Patch]

George Blaine, did the article about the use of Ivomec in hounds years ago, in the Rabbit Hunter Mag.. Anyone have the time to look up the issue?...lol...I've got it somewhere...

Not sure hounds & cattle are a good compairson to draw conclusions.

The old books tell to take hounds off primary meat and add to their diet from the garden during the summer. The hounds will not build fat and stay cooler this way.

Another part of the equation is overall health and longevity of the hounds we breed from. Alot of hot hound get spred through the breed before they, or a look at their parents, ever prove they can hold up for the long haul and many breeders never consider this part of the criteria for breeding.
One Pack Master mentioned this as a strong point in his breeding, old hounds lasting till their 8th & 9th year in the pack. Most are not entered untill they are returned from "walk" at 9-12 months, that would make them 9-10 years old before they are having trouble keeping up with a pack that is "run to catch" type hounds. Not extraordinary, but a point or standard held to, to also prolong the usefulness of the hounds...Patch

[B.Trull]

Well as far as my experience goes with ivomec, I have done well with it for 7 years and had no problems and I have dosing at a amount much higher than most, but I only dose every other month in the warm weather and not at all in the winter. No problems at my kennel with that and my vet approves. I did accidentaly overdose Hank last month and almost killed him due to a slip of the syringe. Will change my technique next time. The 6 yr old female I spoke of in earlier post was given same dosing regime. I have a 11 yr old beagle out here doing ok and has been on same dosing regime. I feed diamond green bag. Well I know in the medical field we give large doses of fluid to protect the kidneys during certain types of therapies to flush them out and protect them. Low blood pressure , aretery hardening many problems can cause renal perfusion problems and untimely renal failure. My 2 main things are

1) Dog underhydrated
2) Genetic predispostion to kidney failure in beagles

peace Good luck, my 2 cents
Brad
LonePine Kennels

[Clyde Gott]

Yesterday…Queen Ann was enjoying some sunshine…even in her frail condition she became excited when I approached her pen with a lead in hand…she trotted proudly toward the truck…pride soon gave way to exhaustion…so I carried her the rest of the way…thanks Keith for finishing a tough job…

Thanks to all for the good thread…

[S.R.Patch]

Sorry for your loss Clyde . The good ones stay with us in memory, so to draw from the good times and also to use as a measuring stick for others to equal. Keep the chin up, the game goes on ...Patch

[Beagleman973]

Sorry for your loss. Sometimes we forget just how much these hounds go through to please us and be with us. Even sick, they try to rise to occasion to please us. That's the balance that outweighs the sadness when we lose them. Keep good thoughts!

[Boomer]

"One of my vets, that has a kennel himself, told me to use 98 cc's of propolene glycol with 2 cc's of Ivomec and give 1 cc for each 25 pounds of body weight, once a month."

Propylene glycol is relatively non-toxic in low-doses, but it will excaberate kidney problems in people and dogs who already have problems, and it can cause kidney damage in high doses. I don't know exactly what "high" is, but if you go by the info at this site http://www.healthy-communications.com/m ... ersey.html , the oral LD50 in rats is 20g/kg. That means approximately 50% of rats (based on lab studies) will die due to poisoning if they ingest 20g of propylene glycol per kg of body weight. 20g is about 20cc, and 25 lbs is about 11.4 kgs, so you're giving 20g/11.4kg to your dogs if you follow your vet's advice. So your vet told you to give your dog 10% of what would amount to a lethal dose of propylene glycol in 50% of rats. That doesn't sound good to me.

And if you look under the "relative toxicity" section, it states that, "Ingestion of sizable amount (over 100ml) may cause gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems." And since this is info for people, it's safe to assume that a dog would suffer effects at much lower doses (incidentally, 100ml=100cc).

Maybe your vet isn't using pure propylene glycol, but diluted in water or something to 5%?

[Boomer]

Then again, maybe dogs handle propylene glycol better. The short-term studies referenced on the below website used a daily equivalent of 5.1 ml/kg body weight (58 cc/25 lb dog) for 5-9 months with no problems. The long-term study used beagles at 23 and 58cc/25 lb dog. I don't know what kind of problems the larger doses caused...I'm not vet/doctor! But suffice to say nobody gives their dog daily doses of propylene glycol at these levels for two years.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 05je90.htm

short term:
"Four dogs consumed 5% of propylene glycol in drinking-water for
five to nine months. The average daily intake of propylene glycol was
5.1 ml/kg bw. All dogs remained in good health and no significant
changes were noted in the functional efficiency of tho liver and
kidneys (galactose excretion, uric acid excretion, rose bengal test,
phenolsulfonphthalein test). Histopathological examination showed no
changes in the livers and kidneys. No alterations in serum calcium
were observed (Winkle & Newman, 1941)."

long term:
"Groups of five male and five female beagles were given propylene
glycol, in the diet, at dosage levels of 2.0 and 5.0 g/kg for two
years. In control groups, the calorific equivalent of dextrose was
given. At the 5 g/kg level, there were findings suggestive of an
increased erythrocyte destruction with a compensatory increased rate
of haematopoiesis: slightly reduced cell count, haemoglobin and
haematocrit values, slightly increased bilirubin, and increased
incidence of anisocytosis, poikilocytosis and reticulocytosis. There
was no evidence of damage to spleen or bone marrow. Dosage with
2 g/kg per day produced no adverse effect. Liver function tests
(bromosulfthalein retention, serum alkaline phosphatase, serum
glutamate-oxalacetate and glutamate-pyruvate transaminases, liver
glycogen and lipids) and liver histology were not significantly
affected by either dose level of propylene glycol (Weil et al., 1971)."

[Aaron Bartlett]

One of my vets, that has a kennel himself, told me to use 98 cc's of propolene glycol with 2 cc's of Ivomec and give 1 cc for each 25 pounds of body weight, once a month.

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Ted,
Im not a Vet but that mixture sounds way off to me. I used to mix this stuff myself after a Vet told me how to do it but I have just been letting a Vet mix it for me for a while now. The mixture the Vet gave me was to mix 1cc ivomec and 9cc propylene glycol = 1cc per 44.4 lbs. The stuff I buy from a Vet now is mixed so that you give 1cc per 30 lbs. I have no idea how they mix it or which one is right or wrong but I have never had any problems either way and I would say that either one is better than giving it straight out of the bottle.

[Ted Peercy]

Aaron,
So what you are saying is that my mixture is way too weak or doesn't have enough Ivomec? He told me that it took very little Ivomec to kill heartworms. I don't know. I do know I have a lot of mosquitos this time of year and have to use something. I'd like to know the mixture you're getting from your vet now. Ted

[Guest]

I'm so sorry to hear this. One good thing I learned, having lost my best female to kidney disease a few years back is that it is worth it to spend extra on a good food. I always thought Purina was the best but learned a lot since then.