In a couple recent email conversations, a thought surfaced that I have noticed before. The fine line between a brilliant hound and fool. There are some big named FC's out there that have impressive trial records and are very highly spoken of in the beagle community, yet when you talk to others, they believe the hound to be extremely faulty. Either mouthy, rough, no hunt etc.
For those of you that have had a handfull of FC's; were there times in the hounds progression that you wondered if the hound was just a mouthy fool .....OR just had a good nose? Was too rough, ........OR just had that competetive edge to get to the front?
I realize there are differing view points on how fast to get a hound in competition: Some have a promising pup in 10+ LP licensed trials in their derby year. Some are finished by age 2. Others bring them along slower, allowing them to compete in their derby trials, then move them to licensed trials in their 3rd year. This year an 18 month old 13" male won the nationals.
Does this trend of trialing dogs very young lead to confusion about a dog being brilliant or a fool? Does reduced entries and allowing more trials per club promote young hounds in licensed trials?
I know some will say it depends on the hound, but there is more to it than that. Some guys ALWAYS have young hounds competing, and some guys always have more mature hounds competing. The bottom line is, and Ive been watching it close. The guys getting pups in licensed trials early are finishing more hounds. On the downside, while judging a couple licensed trials in poor scenting conditions the lack of experience in the hounds presented for evaluation was very evident.
Do you believe we are making the hounds better by finding the hounds that mature the fastest?
Fine Line
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Re: Fine Line
Extra mouth has never presented a problem to me , ruff has and yes i think exposure to pressure of a strange pack will blow one sky high. The ol rule of thumb that getting after a trial dog at 3 makes all the sense in the world to me , but as others i have not always practiced what i preached.Common sense by a handler and just the overall knowledge of the person that is pounding the hound seems to play a big factor in the dog being a fool or a ledgend.Just saying.
When the moment of truth arrives, the point of preparation has passed.
Old School, Full Throttle ,No Bottle.
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Re: Fine Line
Mydawg
There is no way an 18 month old can WIN the nationals!
I dont believe it unless the trial was judged on speed alone or the running was so poor
It really was a crap s hoot as it was in this case I was told
This will cause some flack I'm sure but not being a stranger to flack let it go
A puppy has NOT got the maturity to compete with a 3 or 4 year old as far as patience
in the check area and just plain houndwork on the drive, maybe
Of course we need to understand that in todays atmosphere in LPH trials Speed seems to
be the prime Requisite to win a trial
IT is called 'Accomplishment over style" by a lot of the neophytes judging quite a few
trials today
Not to take away anything from the above hound he probably is a good hound for
an 18 month old hound
ps
NEOPHYTE is not a bad word It means inexperienced LOL
John O
There is no way an 18 month old can WIN the nationals!
I dont believe it unless the trial was judged on speed alone or the running was so poor
It really was a crap s hoot as it was in this case I was told
This will cause some flack I'm sure but not being a stranger to flack let it go
A puppy has NOT got the maturity to compete with a 3 or 4 year old as far as patience
in the check area and just plain houndwork on the drive, maybe
Of course we need to understand that in todays atmosphere in LPH trials Speed seems to
be the prime Requisite to win a trial
IT is called 'Accomplishment over style" by a lot of the neophytes judging quite a few
trials today
Not to take away anything from the above hound he probably is a good hound for
an 18 month old hound
ps
NEOPHYTE is not a bad word It means inexperienced LOL
John O
Last edited by fulcount on Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jim matuszewski
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Re: Fine Line
greenbay's snow paw king
Re: Fine Line
John,
It's not just the nationals, although that is case in point. Several hounds are finishing Large Pack these days around 2 years old. The ones that finish the youngest bring in plenty of stud fee's. Many of these dogs belong to your neighbors out east.
I'm not questioning the ability of any of these hounds. Just find it interesting, the guys finishing 1-3 hounds a year are starting them young, real young.
Mybeagles
It's not just the nationals, although that is case in point. Several hounds are finishing Large Pack these days around 2 years old. The ones that finish the youngest bring in plenty of stud fee's. Many of these dogs belong to your neighbors out east.
I'm not questioning the ability of any of these hounds. Just find it interesting, the guys finishing 1-3 hounds a year are starting them young, real young.
Mybeagles
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DogPatch Fly
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Re: Fine Line
Why is it you call someone a neophyte who judges for accomplishment over style... Isn't the point of having a beagle to get the bunny to the gun as quick as possible without causing breakdowns??
Mybeagle-- I think thats the trend right now is start them and trial them younger and younger.. I don't have a problem with it because its easy to see progression of the hound.. I also hear a lot of people calling GRCH ukc dogs awful and complain about the merits of each dog but ultimately they won for whatever reason.. I personally think a 18month old dog cn be as good as a 5 year old dog... not on average but some are some aren't..
P.S.. Paw king.... does anybody know his speed? Can he keep up with say UKC H&H or the spo midwest or the arha stuff?
Mybeagle-- I think thats the trend right now is start them and trial them younger and younger.. I don't have a problem with it because its easy to see progression of the hound.. I also hear a lot of people calling GRCH ukc dogs awful and complain about the merits of each dog but ultimately they won for whatever reason.. I personally think a 18month old dog cn be as good as a 5 year old dog... not on average but some are some aren't..
P.S.. Paw king.... does anybody know his speed? Can he keep up with say UKC H&H or the spo midwest or the arha stuff?
God isn't real, Beer is good and people are crazy, there I fixed it.
Re: Fine Line
I know there are 18 month old dogs that have had more run time than some 5 year olds.I personally think a 18month old dog cn be as good as a 5 year old dog... not on average but some are some aren't..
Mybeagles
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Re: Fine Line
I would think Paw King would have to move pretty well to win in large pack on hare. JMO.
Last edited by BCBeagles on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fine Line
1. Ground Time (Experience).....look at the numbers.
18 month old hound owned by a dedicated trialer....started at 6 months....is ran 5 days a week for 12 months (52 weeks)....anywhere between 6 and 12 hours per outing = 1560hrs to 3120hrs.
4 year old hound owned by a hobbiest....started at 6 months....is ran 2 days a week for 42 months (182 weeks).....anywhere between 3 and 6 hours per outing = 1092hrs to 2184hrs
The 4 year old hound is an example of a guy who normally just gun hunts and trials as a hobby. Keep in mind the 18 month old hound is ran all year long whereas, in my numbers, I would say the 4 year old hound takes the summers off and then might get ran zero some weeks and 4 or 5 days per week during cooler weather.
2. Stock Replinishment / Talent
The guy who is finishing several hounds a year has his life is dedicated to the sport will finish them faster than he can reproduce what he feels is "talented enough" to spend money training and trialing them. This person will not normally step too far away from his own proven bloodline and thus the hounds get younger and younger....otherwise this houndsman would have to take a break for a year or two in order for his kennels median age to catch up to what the most consider the "normal" trialing age is.
3. Facilities / Running Grounds
Guys who are finishing several hounds have pens, beautiful running grounds, and kennel setups guys like me can only dream about. The game is plentiful and they have the time to use the grounds and sort through several pups. Unfortunately, for most of us, we do not have the resources to dedicate in order to constantly put young hounds on tracks for hours upon hours for evaluation. My 6 hours of running might consist of 3 hours of running and 3 hours of searching....a guy with a pen can easily double my efforts so I must rely on talent and luck.
Just my .02
18 month old hound owned by a dedicated trialer....started at 6 months....is ran 5 days a week for 12 months (52 weeks)....anywhere between 6 and 12 hours per outing = 1560hrs to 3120hrs.
4 year old hound owned by a hobbiest....started at 6 months....is ran 2 days a week for 42 months (182 weeks).....anywhere between 3 and 6 hours per outing = 1092hrs to 2184hrs
The 4 year old hound is an example of a guy who normally just gun hunts and trials as a hobby. Keep in mind the 18 month old hound is ran all year long whereas, in my numbers, I would say the 4 year old hound takes the summers off and then might get ran zero some weeks and 4 or 5 days per week during cooler weather.
2. Stock Replinishment / Talent
The guy who is finishing several hounds a year has his life is dedicated to the sport will finish them faster than he can reproduce what he feels is "talented enough" to spend money training and trialing them. This person will not normally step too far away from his own proven bloodline and thus the hounds get younger and younger....otherwise this houndsman would have to take a break for a year or two in order for his kennels median age to catch up to what the most consider the "normal" trialing age is.
3. Facilities / Running Grounds
Guys who are finishing several hounds have pens, beautiful running grounds, and kennel setups guys like me can only dream about. The game is plentiful and they have the time to use the grounds and sort through several pups. Unfortunately, for most of us, we do not have the resources to dedicate in order to constantly put young hounds on tracks for hours upon hours for evaluation. My 6 hours of running might consist of 3 hours of running and 3 hours of searching....a guy with a pen can easily double my efforts so I must rely on talent and luck.
Just my .02
Last edited by Ohiohntr on Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fine Line
Very valid post!!
Re: Fine Line
Mobeagler
I dont advocate style over accomplishment if that what you infer
I want Speed with Control my point was we have people judging just the front end no matter how they get there In large pack one who hooks and swings ,reaches on his packmates to get the advantage is cheating these are placing and winning today in a lot of cases we have
a rule book to judge by and any dog interfering with the smooth running of a pack is demerited or eliminated or should be instead of given credit as a lot of are, soley
because people are just judging the front end of a pack as they cross the trail
Contrary to what alot of people out there might believe a large pack trial is not a horse
race but a trial to come up with a well rounded hound
that can settle on a check as well as drive a Hare/Rabbit
lets not confuse A hound that is out of control with accomplishment
John O
I dont advocate style over accomplishment if that what you infer
I want Speed with Control my point was we have people judging just the front end no matter how they get there In large pack one who hooks and swings ,reaches on his packmates to get the advantage is cheating these are placing and winning today in a lot of cases we have
a rule book to judge by and any dog interfering with the smooth running of a pack is demerited or eliminated or should be instead of given credit as a lot of are, soley
because people are just judging the front end of a pack as they cross the trail
Contrary to what alot of people out there might believe a large pack trial is not a horse
race but a trial to come up with a well rounded hound
that can settle on a check as well as drive a Hare/Rabbit
lets not confuse A hound that is out of control with accomplishment
John O
Re: Fine Line
...
Last edited by Roseland on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Roseland Beagles
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Re: Fine Line
John Ol Buddy I am riding with you on this one.There is no substitue for age and hours.And yes i have seen some decent young dogs that once hammered at trials should of been culled and buried.I personally attended a trial this year that very surprizing to say the least, Maybe it just me but the times they are a changing.............fulcount wrote:Mobeagler
I dont advocate style over accomplishment if that what you infer
I want Speed with Control my point was we have people judging just the front end no matter how they get there In large pack one who hooks and swings ,reaches on his packmates to get the advantage is cheating these are placing and winning today in a lot of cases we have
a rule book to judge by and any dog interfering with the smooth running of a pack is demerited or eliminated or should be instead of given credit as a lot of are, soley
because people are just judging the front end of a pack as they cross the trail
Contrary to what alot of people out there might believe a large pack trial is not a horse
race but a trial to come up with a well rounded hound
that can settle on a check as well as drive a Hare/Rabbit
lets not confuse A hound that is out of control with accomplishment
John O
When the moment of truth arrives, the point of preparation has passed.
Old School, Full Throttle ,No Bottle.
Old School, Full Throttle ,No Bottle.
Re: Fine Line
This post is for the guys who have been there and done that and that ain't me. 
Re: Fine Line
Are there some great hounds at a very young age? Absolutely, I can name many that finished early and produced very well early.
But… even those that are great early are even better at the more experienced age of 4 or 5.
You can’t replace or shortcut to pure “experience” and time on the ground. As “Ohiohntr” made the good point of comparing the actual hours of ground time combined with the difference in running conditions between the “dedicated trialer” and the “hobbiest”… I would suggest comparing the same “superstar” dog at the age of 18 months using the “dedicated trialer” method, to “himself” when he turns 4 or 5. You will find there is no comparison, because no matter how you slice it or explain it, any dog being trained under the same regiment is better at the age of 4 or 5 then he was at 18 months.
As far as trialing at a young age? People will always do it, it is great for business and AKC will always promote it, because it is great for business and they will do it in the name of “show casing and developing young dogs”, while they make a ton of money. No different than most people signing their kids up for Little League Baseball, Basketball or Football in the name of “it helps kids develop many skills, some of them get good enough to get scholarships”…. But look at the fees we have all paid over the years. It’s all about getting the cash with the two fold “killing two birds with one stone” purpose in mind.
But… even those that are great early are even better at the more experienced age of 4 or 5.
You can’t replace or shortcut to pure “experience” and time on the ground. As “Ohiohntr” made the good point of comparing the actual hours of ground time combined with the difference in running conditions between the “dedicated trialer” and the “hobbiest”… I would suggest comparing the same “superstar” dog at the age of 18 months using the “dedicated trialer” method, to “himself” when he turns 4 or 5. You will find there is no comparison, because no matter how you slice it or explain it, any dog being trained under the same regiment is better at the age of 4 or 5 then he was at 18 months.
As far as trialing at a young age? People will always do it, it is great for business and AKC will always promote it, because it is great for business and they will do it in the name of “show casing and developing young dogs”, while they make a ton of money. No different than most people signing their kids up for Little League Baseball, Basketball or Football in the name of “it helps kids develop many skills, some of them get good enough to get scholarships”…. But look at the fees we have all paid over the years. It’s all about getting the cash with the two fold “killing two birds with one stone” purpose in mind.