Naturally Trashproof??

[Briarhoppers]

I know there has been a lot of talk about naturally trashproof dogs. I have one so I know they exist! This female is 4 yrs. old and from the time she started, she has not run anything but a rabbit. She has been test numerous times and I am so confident that I put $1000 on the table to say she won't run trash. That includes deer, fox, bobcat, coon - anything. I even took her to GA to run swampers and she wouldn't run them. She is a cottontail hound to the bone. She even will come back to my feet immediately if she is w/ dogs that jump trash - to tell on them!! I have never had a shock collar on her and have even run her in places were the deer outnumberedt the rabbits 3 -1!!

So my question is not do these dogs exist as I am confident they do. But, can anyone successfully breed for this trait?? By successfully, I mean at least 75% of the litter. Has anyone done this?

Thanks,
Pete Burns

[Alabama John]

Yes, but it is still undecided if the pups were bred that way or even more likely they were taught by the old dogs not running trash with them. When they started trash and the old dogs came to them, didn't open, and walked off in disgusted body language or dog communication.

We've had pups try to run cows and other farm animals too and stop when the old dogs wouldn't run it.

I've never seen a young Beagle that wouldn't run a bird dog if it ran up on its trail while hunting. No other dog, just pointing breeds.

BORN or TAUGHT?

[Briarhoppers]

AL John,
Thanks for your reply. I think most trash proof dogs are taught by man or learn from experience w/ older dogs. But, I do also believe that there are those beagles that are born trash proof. The female I mentioned previously was one of the two first beagles I bought. I started them together and they did not run w/ any other beagles until they were going on two years old. One naturally ran deer and had to be broken and the other never opened on a deer track....not once. She turned them down from the very beginning and has never once taken to anything other than a rabbit. I have to conclude that she was "born" this way.

I guess that from the lack of response, that very few, if any have been successful in breeding for this trait - - which is what I thought.

[Bev]

Briarhopper your post is only two hours old. Don't give up for lack of response. I suspect this is a topic that will bring a variety of opinions - it always does. there are so many things that factor into whether or not a dog will be a deer runner, both genetic and environmental, it's hard to pin down the exact reasons why one dog will and another dog won't.

Let me revert for just a second to my pack behavior studies and observations. Remember, before we intervened, all dogs hunted and ran down large game to survive. They worked as a team, but didn't run exactly together the way our beagle packs do. Deer running had to be weeded out by generation after generation of selective breeding to get us to the point we are now because it's their FIRST instinct to run them. Some of our dogs still have that instinct running strong through their veins, and if they can't be broken, we shouldn't breed them for rabbit hounds. Send them south where the boys can still hunt deer with dogs and let them improve upon their strains.

This is why I don't lose my ever-loving mind if a dog or pup runs a deer. They need to be broken, and the ease at which they broke determines a lot in my mind.

[Hilltop Kennels]

I agree with Bev, I also think it can be breed into them not to run deer but there is always that exception. Most pups will run what the older dogs are running it is all how you bring them up during their training. I also think if I have a pup and he is not running deer I have a pretty good chance to make him run deer if I run him with deer dogs, but on the same hand there is always an exception to that rule.

[DarrinG]

I personally believe it's more of a matter of environment than heredity.

I know a gentleman who owns a female that I would have bet my next paycheck on (which wouldnt be much, LOL) would never run a deer. She was 6 years old and had never, never even tried one. As a matter of fact she would "tattle" on any other hound that took a deer as she would come back to his feet and look at him kinda strange. If we saw her coming back from checking another dog, it was time to start pushing buttons, LOL. Then one day.........

We were hunting a cutover along a hay field. A young hound opened along the field edge in a thicket, she went to check and both lit out wide open after a big bodied deer across the hay field. My friend about fell over in shock from seeing his "naturally trash-proof" hound take that deer with the pup. The female was not wearing a e-collar because she had never ran trash but the pup was. We had to cut the female off and he scolded her hard and smacked her rear and she has never ran trash again to my knowledge, but she did that one time....at 6 years old, and had never tried it before according to him (and I believe him).

To say a hound is 100% trash-proof, my feelings is a person can say that AFTER the dog is dead and buried and never ran trash. Until then, there's always a first time.

[Cooks Hilltop Kennel]

I have to wade in on this one as it has buffaloed me for years. I have owned some naturally straight hounds and have attempted in the past to only breed those that were naturally straight. In nearly every case every pup in those litters had to be broken off trash. It is inexplicable to me. I do remember an old walker coondog my buddy had that was 7 years of age when he finally ran his first deer! I guess if we had all the answers our hounds would be perfect huh?
One thing for sure - do not expose young hounds to trash runners and they just might develop into trash proof hounds. I am like the one guy though, never say never!!!!!!
I HATE TRASH RUNNERS!

[MasonsBeagles]

I am not sure if it is heredity or not. I run a higher strung hound than some people like. I assume that all young hounds will run trash at least once in their life.lol I know their are trashproof hounds out there as i have seen them but do not feel that it can be a bred trait. I think that you can train beagles to run what ever you want weither it is deer, foxes, cyotes, hogs or bear. The running of scent is heredity and I feel like if you want to keep your dogs straight you need to keep them in good company while young. It sometimes will make my friends mad when I wont run with a bunch of different people while breaking young hounds, but have found with experience that a couple of hours in the wrong company can set you back months.

As far as trash running I have found that if I start my hounds in a starting pen and make sure the first thing they ever run is a rabbit and keep them in rabbits once they get out of the pen. I usually do not have problems. Course keeping them in rabbits is hard to do in most cases as the deer outnumber the rabbits in these parts. But it seems to only require a tap of the button to stop any nonsense. lol

Good post.

[alswamper]

I'll say it again, here, one more time.

When someone finally breeds a "trash proof" dog, send me the whole litter and let me see them. I want them at 5 months old, the whole litter and I'll give $1000 a dog for every dog that is running rabbits at 1 year adn not running deer. No collars used.

It's enviroment and training. No dog is born knowing that deer are bad just like us americans are not born knowing we speak english. We are taught that from an early age.

[redsrule]

ok but that some expensive dogs i'll sell u them patches a llittle cheaper than that!

[HatterasBob]

I did have a mother and daughter that were 100% deer proof (they did run pheasants with my approval). I had 3 bitches out of the old dog and only 1 refused deer. I bred her and kept 3 pups and all of them ran deer. So, I have trouble believing there is a bloodline of naturally trash proof beagles. Naturally trash proof is different then broke. Pete, you stated that you dog returns to your feet. I associate that behavior with a broke dog not a naturally trash proof dog. Did you start this dog as a pup, or could it be broke before you got it. I start breaking my pups at about 6 weeks old, using a deer gland and electric fence in an area where they play.

[Briarhoppers]

Hatteras Bob,
Thanks for your reply. I have had this trash proof female since she was 8 weeks old - and started her myself. I did not break her off deer as she never offered to run deer. Far back as I can remember she has always come back to me when deer were jumped. But, I do suppose she could have learned this early on by seeing other dogs get shocked.

From reading the feedback, it seems that most everyone who has responded agrees that trashproof is not a trait you can successfully breed for and in most all cases it is something that is taught or learned. Are there any out there that think otherwise?

[Guest]

Darren:
When I lived in Memphis,Tenn I had a friend out in Millington by the name of Kevin Pilkington.He had a dog called Weir Creek Little Red that was a grandson of Weir Creek Buzz.He never ran a deer till he turned 11.My buddy said he would have bet his truck or even his house that that dog would not run a deer.He had literally turned down hundreds of deer races but at 11 he started one.Funny what dogs will do.

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

[DarrinG]

I just have a hard time believing that a pup coems into this world from it's mother's womb KNOWING that it's supposed to run rabbits and rabbits only. I do believe they have the natural instinct to run scent lines, but for them to simply be born with that knowledge of which one of those smelly scents to run and what not to, I dont buy into. I believe if you dropped a unstarted, 6 month old pack of pups into a large pen with some deer and no rabbits, and especially if you turn in with them an older, experienced deer dog, I believe the chances of every one of them running deer pretty soon would happen. Like Swamper said, I think if you take a pup, put it on deer at a young age, praise it for running deer, let it run deer, and try to keep it in deer areas and on deer (just like we do with rabbits), I'd bet you'll probably get a deer dog! It wont take long for an intelligent hound to learn what scent you want it to run and/or to be broke from the others. A smart pup will learn what scent is fun to run and acceptable to you, the alpha!

Pete, hope the move from NC to TN has been smooth for you.

[Briarhoppers]

DarrinG-
Appreciate your feedback - and all the others.

The move has gone well...thanks for asking. But it is a lot of work!! Hope I don't have to move again for a good long while! I'll miss NC, but will be there quite a bit deer hunting this fall w/ family and friends. I moved just 3 dogs w/ me, my core group and they have adjusted well to the new kennel set-up, etc. I have a couple young dogs all ready bought from Jamie Hilbert in KY that are ready to start and plan to start working w/ them next week. I've run the older dogs here several times and have had some real good runs in bean fields.

Pete