A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
BCBeagles wrote:I say if you find a nice pup out of hounds you like and it could be what you want, buy it.. To be honest, I raised my level of the type of hound I owned and for that matter, the type of pup I would buy and I find my enjoyment to be twice what it was.
I was dealing in average hounds, they would be effective for the most part, but I found a few that really suited me and I am now much happier with the results. IS THERE A BIG GAP BETWEEN A FCGD AND A VERY GOOD HOUND??? NO, but there is a gap, you just have to look closely.
I, opposed to some,(no offense meant) do want a world beater and if we all were real honest would want that hound of a lifetime to. I am striving to find that hound with the ones I have so that quest is VERY FUN to me. I get tired of excuses for poor running, bad scent, too hot to hunt, and on and on. I don't want to make excuses. LOL. I want the best I can find and if it is $150 or $450 or even more in a pup that can get me there I will buy it!!! Will it be the next great one, odds say not, but MAN IT COULD BE.
So I think this is to me is what gambling on a slot machine is to some. The next pull or pup will be the ONE!!! LOL.
I think $150 for a pup is cheap, but if that pup had parents that I thought could produce a super hound I would get it, same as if it was $450, JMO.
Look at the coonhound world and there pups, our pups at 150 to 300 are CHEAP compared to many of theres at 350-1000 or more in some cases. That is normal and not the abnormal.
Good running to all!
sounds like the words of a man who went out and educated himself!! Great post!!!! It is what it is...can you take a 35 dollarp up and go out and beat a 1000.00 dollar dog with it sure maybe you could, but you won't know till you try....the value is in the eyes of the beholder...$300.00 is what I'd expect to pay for a pup that is in my opinion bred very well. $150.00 is in my opinion going to get you a.k.c papers, and a decent dog that you can shoot rabbits over. 4-500.00 for a broke dog that you can shoot rabbits and not worry about much off game problems, and 600 and up for something you wanna take a trial and be competitive 1000.00 you better making the final pack in a big hunt or at least fighting hard all the way to get there...
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jimb1069 wrote:I say the difference is they have at least proven their abilities to an audience instead of just one person...especially the proven reproducers and thats why I would expect the price increase over the untitled hound. It just simply hasn't proven itself to the public. Not to say its any less of a hound but what do you base it on? Going to watch it one time? two times? Just doesn't compare to being tested against the best or producing litter after litter. I myself would roll the dice with the proven hounds and expect to pay more because of the history with the titled dog. If titles mean nothing why is there a big crowd trying to get them?
Kudos!! sorry guys just quoting the good posts on here LOL.! Great post buddy!
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Crow wrote:My old pick up has about ten years of my time in it & it shows every day of that ten years. Beat up quite a bit & when folks hear it has 200,000 miles they're typically not to shocked. Probably is worth about $4,000 if I'm lucky but I've got a lot of time in it & I'm proud as heck of it. It's for sale. Asking $15,000 FIRM. Anyone interested?
Just because you spend a lot doesn't always mean you got a lot for it. Not saying good ones are cheap or not worth the price, just saying like papers, the price does not make the dog.
the dog should be priced on ability and pups should be priced on potential based on there sires and dam's reproducing record and performance record and going back even further in the pedigree of that pup!! what you are saying is like priceing a 14 year old dog that has had many good days for a price of a young started dog with alot of great potential. Mine is a 2005 and i have 170,000.00 miles on it and 80% of those miles have been spent chasing around dogs and trials,and rabbit hunts across the country....4 trips to georgia, 3 to upper P michigan,5 to upper lower michigan, and lord only knows how many trips to new york, pennsylvannia,indiana,wv,ky,tn, n.c, s.c, virginia, and illinois, missouri, and lord knows how many small trips i make in ohio to go run with people....I'm not trying to sell it or compare it in some wierd way to how much the value of a beagle is...LOL lets keep it real. A beagle is only worth what the buyer pays for it......If you don't trial and compete on a regular basis then i would'nt blame you for not paying that much for a dog. I am a trialer, but most of all a gun hunter I prefer to rabbit hunt over deer hunt b/c I like nothing better than a pack of GREAT dogs pounding a rabbit out across hills full bore, and then to shoot that rabbit for those dogs is the biggest passion i have aside from God, my family , and my country of course. Rabbit hunting is my vacation!!!!! If i find something i can afford and i want it bad enough i'm gonna buy it, or darn sure try to find the money to get it...and then the commradery of good fellow beaglers. It's my obsession. i won't buy a 35.00 pup b/c it prbly don't even akc papers. LOL. but thats my choice....papers don't run the rabbit, but if you do your'e homework like some do, and pay attention to what does and does'nt work to produce better dogs then it sure helps lay a road map to find something that does!!
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the bottomline is the training...you can pay as much as you or as littlle as you want but if you don't already know what a good dog is or you run what could be a good a dog with junk dogs it's going to learn the junk traits and be junk itself No quicker way to ruining a dog than to run it with trashy dogs or not how to correct it or letting a young dog learn from faulty older dogs. That could be why some people can't see the difference between a well bred pup that was bought for more money from the other 35 dollar dogs they have....it sounds mean and to some but it could also the be the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.....on a nicer note it's value is in the eyes of the beholder. Some might agree with the price and pay it and some may not, those that do not i don't see why it's any of there buisness stick with what you know and works, but when you wanna learn something new or gain more knowledge open you're eyes to new possibilities.......I do agree alot of people are just making crosses and trying to sell puppies for money I see it all over the internet!!! How about all these groups people are making facebook it's same people over and over trying to sell dogs for prices that the dog prbly is'nt worth just b/c of the names on the papers those dogs carry if the papers are even correct in the first place LOL....but it's a matter of how much time effort and energy you are willing to invest to find the right dogs for you! If it's a 5,000.00 dollar dog or a 35.00 dollar dog. There is alot of argument and discussion in a post like this and it's hard to cover it all in a single post but i just tried...You go out and put some serious time into a dog you've trained and get real proud of that dog then tell us how much you think it's worth if someone wants to buy him to go out and win trials or how much you think puppies are worth out of him/her once you breed it.....but getting others to see how good it is is the hard part!!! an internet keyboard is'nt gonna do that for ya!
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Crow wrote:My old pick up has about ten years of my time in it & it shows every day of that ten years. Beat up quite a bit & when folks hear it has 200,000 miles they're typically not to shocked. Probably is worth about $4,000 if I'm lucky but I've got a lot of time in it & I'm proud as heck of it. It's for sale. Asking $15,000 FIRM. Anyone interested?
Just because you spend a lot doesn't always mean you got a lot for it. Not saying good ones are cheap or not worth the price, just saying like papers, the price does not make the dog.
the dog should be priced on ability and pups should be priced on potential based on there sires and dam's reproducing record and performance record and going back even further in the pedigree of that pup!! what you are saying is like priceing a 14 year old dog that has had many good days for a price of a young started dog with alot of great potential. Mine is a 2005 and i have 170,000.00 miles on it and 80% of those miles have been spent chasing around dogs and trials,and rabbit hunts across the country....4 trips to georgia, 3 to upper P michigan,5 to upper lower michigan, and lord only knows how many trips to new york, pennsylvannia,indiana,wv,ky,tn, n.c, s.c, virginia, and illinois, missouri, and lord knows how many small trips i make in ohio to go run with people....I'm not trying to sell it or compare it in some wierd way to how much the value of a beagle is...LOL lets keep it real. A beagle is only worth what the buyer pays for it......If you don't trial and compete on a regular basis then i would'nt blame you for not paying that much for a dog. I am a trialer, but most of all a gun hunter I prefer to rabbit hunt over deer hunt b/c I like nothing better than a pack of GREAT dogs pounding a rabbit out across hills full bore, and then to shoot that rabbit for those dogs is the biggest passion i have aside from God, my family , and my country of course. Rabbit hunting is my vacation!!!!! If i find something i can afford and i want it bad enough i'm gonna buy it, or darn sure try to find the money to get it...and then the commradery of good fellow beaglers. It's my obsession. i won't buy a 35.00 pup b/c it prbly don't even akc papers. LOL. but thats my choice....papers don't run the rabbit, but if you do your'e homework like some do, and pay attention to what does and does'nt work to produce better dogs then it sure helps lay a road map to find something that does!!
Just wanted to address a couple of points there. First one, on the truck I'm keeping it very real. If someone is going to price something based on time & "hidden cost" then everything should be considered. Shoot why not figure in how much food the parents have eaten up to the time of breeding, the gas & time spent running the parents to make them worthy of reproducing. How about the grandparents & great's & great great's. Shoot before long we'll be breaking out calculators & figuring out 20 year interest rates to buy a pup. My comparison was just making a point about just because someone has a product & they have put time into it & are proud of it doesn't make it a high quality product. I do agree with your old dog analogy to a degree but surely if you read 2 posts above my post you quoted you will see where I was going. Maybe not agree with it but at least see what I was meaning. I'm not saying all pups are overpriced but some are. Just like every stud dog is not over blown but some are. I agree to achieve IFC or CKC or whatever other alphabet soup generally does take a superior dog but many times it is mostly a pretty good dog has a good run of fortunate circumstances including, but not limited to, a draw of "familiar" judges. Couple that with the right type of internet hype & many times what is an above average, but not truly great, hound will be lifted to mythical status. There are a few there now. I don't care to express my opinion on which ones but, as you say, if you pay attention & do your homework most will be able to pick those out prior to breeding. My meaning is just because I stamp $400 on a 8 week old pup does not make it the next world beater. It is my pup & I can ask what I want for it, no one has to buy it but it's kinda like that used car salesman that has got most all of us at one time or another. He ain't wrong for doing it, but doing it sure don't make him right either.
Secondly, I to am first & foremost a gun hunter but have trialed occasionally. From small clubs to the LP world. Got a female that just needs a few points on her to finish her to champion which I plan to attempt soon when the weather cools down & the hunts heat up. Like most I believe this will make her more appealing to a stud dog owner & their pups will be easier to sale. I will base the price on the 2 dogs ability & not their "champion status". If the pups are worth $200 or $20 the abbreviations in front of the parents name have no bearing on price in my mind but it does affect how easy or hard it will be to sale pups at any given price. The mindset now is if it ain't expensive it must not be any good. Example would you think twice before buying a 8 week old pup outta the 2 hottest dogs out there right now if it was priced for $50? If so why? It is the owners pup, he can price it for what he wants right, does the $50 make it have less potential or ability? I do agree that pedigrees are essential to breeding if you want to better the breed. Unless you are only gonna breed yours to yours, keep all the pups, or keep what you want & kill the rest they are the only way to track lineage to try to pair parents with desired conformation & hunting traits but make no mistake I buy the dog on the ground in front of me not the ones on the paper behind it. I guess it has & probably always will boil down to the thought that there are rabbit dogs & there are TRIAL DOGS! I mean really? Aren't trials SUPPOSED to judge how good a RABBIT DOG does its job? Either way, I'm not looking to go to war over this, just thinking (and typing) out loud.
I think that pups out of a fc or ftch would normally cost a bit more because
It is not free to campain a dog. Not trying to get cought up in all the rest of this mombo jumbo just thinking simple
I think it is a shot in the dark when buying other stock lol
There are so many varibles in crosses it is impossible to tell which ones will produce average rabbit dogs at best regardless of crossing an IFC or FC to another IFC or FC UNLESS that specific cross has been made and proven to produce such. There is also so much varibility amoung those in a specific littler so the breeding of that offspring will be another roll of the dice. I see dogs offered for public stud being bred to all kinds of females just because they have the titles and when I see the pedigrees of the offspring there are so many different lines in there I would have no idea of what to even expect as to what I was looking for in a dog. Breeding any female to any male for the first time is a gamble with absolutely no guarantee the offsring will even be average regardless of the titles on the stud and or the female. Even if one is loaded up with a specific line(line bred) in the offspring's pedigree there is no guarantee of anything but what it MAY do is stack the traits one is looking for so as to get more of them as opposed to the ones you don't like. IMHO, until a cross has been made and the offspring proven to be able to be average or above can these high prices be justified. Minus that we are paying for pups with the same potential as any roll of dice may have, be they registered dogs or grade. Price in no way dictates quality, neither does titles when it comes to specifc crosses until or unless the offspring from that specific cross proves worthy of a second breeding.
I think at the end of the day, I will stick with my culls and hope to finish one or two because it means more to me because I was the breeder, handler, and owner. Then this winter slay a few rabbits. I ain't in it for the money just want to play the game.
When the moment of truth arrives, the point of preparation has passed.
Old School, Full Throttle ,No Bottle.
BIG AL wrote:One price for a pup with AKC papers. A lot more for a well bred pup with AKC papers. What is considered well bred?
lol thats pretty cut and dry well bred to me may not be well bred to you or vice versa..i think sometimes ppl just look for things to disect and this definitely one of them!! As a matter of fact I just bought a VERY well bred pup today for $200.00 !!! EXTREMELY WELL BRED!!! but i'm not telling you how she is bred that is my secret and the others who were smart enough to get one of these dogs!!! Do some homework and maybe you'll find out!! LOL J/K buddy nothing wrong with some smack talk...
also had to add that last post was pretty sensible crow i can see where you are coming from! This a great topic..
Wardog have you raised,trained, or bred any a.k.c field champions ?
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I dont sell many pups but when I do I sell them for $150.00 each. I dont trial but I rabbit hunt and run dogs constantly and my gundogs that I keep are good solid hounds. Im not trying to make a living off of selling beagles, just selling the ones that I am not gonna keep. When I have a litter I will usually keep a pair of pups and sell the rest. Have only raised 3 litters in the last five years so I aint in it for the money. I just breed for what i like. It is hard for me to understand why folks pay big money for lap dogs or yard dogs. My dogs that I keep work hard. Them high bred muts that folks pay a thousand dollars for just run around in the house and yard just eat, sleep, and make a mess. Different strokes for different folks. If someone is into dogs to make money, beagles aint the breed they should be messing with.
BIG AL wrote:One price for a pup with AKC papers. A lot more for a well bred pup with AKC papers. What is considered well bred?
lol thats pretty cut and dry well bred to me may not be well bred to you or vice versa..i think sometimes ppl just look for things to disect and this definitely one of them!! As a matter of fact I just bought a VERY well bred pup today for $200.00 !!! EXTREMELY WELL BRED!!! but i'm not telling you how she is bred that is my secret and the others who were smart enough to get one of these dogs!!! Do some homework and maybe you'll find out!! LOL J/K buddy nothing wrong with some smack talk...
also had to add that last post was pretty sensible crow i can see where you are coming from! This a great topic..
Wardog have you raised,trained, or bred any a.k.c field champions ?
I don"t trial beagles BUT I did coon hounds many years ago. Yep, I did breed, raise, trained and made a couple Nite champions and showed many on the bench. Although I do NOT trial beagles I have a female that has produced an AKC field champion and several others out of her have made nice dogs. Is there a reason for your question?
Say someone had artifically bred a good producing bitch out of one of these dogs today What would a direct pup out of Jack of all trades, turbo by prop, Blue Ninja, Johnny paycheck, Dom Dougie, Mt ZION PETE, Trak arab Pacesetter, NorthWay Spur or Ranger Dan go for today. Now most guys have never seen any of these dogs run but do know what they have done in the producing world. Would you be willing to pay a little more than $150.
Next Example say you bought a pup out of a cross made a few years back and it turned out perfect to your liking and the rest of the litter was the same would you be willing to pay a little more for another pup if the cross was made again.
Now i want a Reggie pup out of a good Bitch and their are not a lot of Reggie pups around where I live I would be willing to pay a little more to the guy who takes his time and gas money.
Yes every pups is a gamble but I want the odds on my side.
