Akc vs LP hunts

[rabbithunter5890]

It seems that people bash lp but I see a lot of hounds finish in lp and then go do well in akc. A good dog will get it done no matter the format.

[Jon Gibeaut]

I know nothing about lp but from what I can gather from reading this post and previous post is that in a lp trial the judges have a set in stone scoring system. Don't matter who your running under if a dog gets a check or any thing positive it's a certain amount of points and or negative points for anything negative that's in the rule book. Don't know if I'm correct but that's what I gather. In lp they don't list judges on here for advertised judges because it don't matter who you're running under they have to score or demerit the dogs the same way every time. In AKC ( where I'm a licensed judge) they don't have a scoring system. It's solely upon the judges discretion on how they want to do there scoring. AKC has a seminar for people to take a class to become a judge. They give you guidelines on what to look for and what to score and demerit but it's up to the judges to figure out how they want to score it. That's why you have people follow certain judges and won't run under certain judges. One judge might like a little rougher dog while the other judge might like a clean running dog. That's why you hear people say you're paying for someone else's opinion of your dog. My opinion I like AKC just because there's no scoring system. To many variables come into play while running a rabbit to have a scoring system, rabbits pull way to many tricks to just score checks and lines

[rabbitearl]

I had a fun trial one time doing it like SPO trials.It came down to two dogs that I was looking at and both dogs were back and fourth in running.It came to a check.Then a rabbit cross the road don t know if it was the same rabbit but I told the two men to come here and call the dogs on the rabbit.They call and only one dog came to the line and took off with it then came the other dog.I told them that what ever dog comes to the call will win.There was no if and buts about this win and everybody was happy.I ve judge a lot of fun trials and in most trials there is always two or three dogs just as good as the other one in running a rabbit.Now if I was rabbit hunting I would want a dog to come when call.So in trial that's the reason I say.There something eles beside running a rabbit. What format could had done what I done.I mean if you were a judge and going by the rules in any format.Out of ( lets say 40 dogs in the trial) Could you pick out the best dog to rabbit hunt over.You might can pick out the best running dog but I would say there s a lot of dogs that don t make it to win in a trial, but are better at rabbit hunting.

Like I ve said before.I ve judge fun trials were nobody wins.Everybody got pick up.I don t think a dogs should win just because you run out of dogs.I would love to see a format to do that.

[johns03272008]

Calling a hound and winning is similar to Little Pack with their hunting and handling rule. I don't believe I would ever give a dog a win based on if it came to me when it was called!! Some dogs won't respond to other guys calling them because they are used to their owners!! That's why we use the word Talley Bo to put them on a rabbit because its pretty universal and all dogs know what's gonna happen when they come over there!!! I understand it was just a fun hunt but I would judge them if it was that close on who hunted harder

[BB Beagles]

I run mostly LP. LP does have set rules on scoring. LP you also have to take test to be field judge. I have seen good dogs be beat by the scoring system. Example- blue collar got strike and a check=35pts. 5 min left in cast white collar who hasn't done squat the whole cast steps on a rabbit, judge sees it, BOOM 40 pts for jump/strike. Hour time runs out, you just got beat by 5 pts even though your dog was dominate in cast. Judging in LP is a hard job! They run there ass of to make sure the best hound wins of that hour. I applaud them.

To me that's what few of y'all are referring to loop holes?
But the way I understand, by the way it sounds akc also as them too?

Example- following a particular judge around cause he prefers your hound style of running over another. Somebody stated AKC gives a seminar class to judge. Well that fine and a good thing, because I believe for trialling a judge should show some kind of proof for being capable of judging a cast of hounds, BUT what if judge I get prefers smooth hounds and mine is rougher than crap? Or vice versa? I'm not following one judge like a lost puppy!

When I first started running LP, they told me that LP was form for the rabbit hunter. That was reason for scoring jump/strikes, jumps, checks, and strikes. Best hound of the hour cast wins.
Akc has scoring but based on judge discretion.

Guys I got knews for ya!! You know why me are back and forth with the two???
Is because we all love to run those hounds. Ya, everybody wants a LPGRCH, or FC, but we wouldn't keep going back if we didn't love watching and running them dogs.

On another note! I ran in a PKC beagle trial other day. NOW that's a different breed of format. I enjoyed running in it but, the set rules need some fine tuning.

[chris1971]

Here is my 2 cents on this subject from someone that has had dogs in the past to gun over and never trialed until the last couple of seasons. I have run in UKC, PKC, NKC, and AKC to try and determine the format that I liked and that fit my hound. Now I had no idea on how any of the formats worked when I went and to be honest still not sure how they scored in a couple of them. What I did notice in most of the ones I went to is that the gallery following behind dogs at 100 yards most of the time felt they had score because the "Heard their dog." Now like I said I just gun hunted most of my life but I have ran across dogs that would on some days do no wrong and others would tell a fib or two and at times maybe I did not know what I was seeing. I have seen some get so upset because they said the judge did not score their dog right but could not even see their dog. I feel I was treated decent at all formats and that I had a shot at them when I went. I do not have a great dog but he is Ok for me and still young so maybe with time he will develop into a great dog or maybe not. The hardest thing for me to do has been to be honest with myself and my dog. Kinda like your kids when they play sports at a young age and you think they have the skills to go PRO! Hahaha boy is that a hard pill to swallow when they tell you one day that they no longer or never loved it like you did. So I guess remember what it is all about and why we do what we love and enjoy the ride. Life is way to short to go around mad and with a chip on your shoulder. My Two Cents!!

[warddog]

i understand what the lp is looking for but what exactly is the akc trials looking for and how do they do there scoring ect.. why does the akc not break down the scoring like lp does and explain what they saw occur after each so called rabbit that has been ran. i mean a man kinda wants to know how he is standing so long in a trial. wouldn't you wanta know, how your hound was fairing scoring wise!!!

Judging hounds in AKC should be based on which dogs most adhere to the standard as outlined in the AKC rule book. According to the rule book, the dog that runs most like the standard and will most likely better the breed should be the winner.

Realistically though, a lot of dogs in a trial run within the guidelines as explained in the rule book. Then it comes down to the dog that has the most accomplishment which is also addressed in the AKC rule book in judging accomplishment over style.

I understand your point though. A long time ago, when I ran a lot of AKC trials, my biggest frustration was in not having a concrete scoring system. But when I judged, I much preferred being able to select hounds based on their accomplishment and style and not just who got the check like it is in ARHA.

exactly, no concrete scoring system, you said it all right there!!!!! you dont know exactly what is going on scoring wise you dont know nothing till they either call you back to come out in the next cast or till they tell you to pick up your hound!!!! and you still do not know what your hound has gotten scoring wise. for example if ya get a strike/jump 40 points a check 25 points!!! so if you run a cast your hound gets a strike jump and 4 checks for example you know where you stand after the cast has finished!!! witch would be 140, so you know your hound has 140 pts and anything anyone elses hounds has has to beat that score to beat you out!! i did not see anything even close to that in that akc trial i attended!!!

WELL, here is but yet another thread about trials just as I have posted to many times previously. Looks like east80kennels has as many questions of EXACTLY what makes a better beagle. Supposedly these titles earned proves that the dog has proven itself BUT YET I continuously see all the arguing od exactly what that is. From what I have read on these beagle boards it is quite obvious to me as an outsider looking in that this entire process is nothing more than subjectivity and some formats more so than others. I've only been to one beagle trial BUT have competed in hundreds of coon hound nite hunts so I'm well aware of what goes on whether folks want to believe it or not. Do the same things happen in every hunt, well maybe not but they do so in most. ASs I have stated, I have seen best friends become bitter enemies when drawn out in a cast and folks witnessing that took the fun right out of it for me. I will say just one thing about trials regardless of what others may think and that is when you attend one you are going into it knowing full well that YOUR dog will be judged by an individual or maybe a couple individuals that may or may not have the same likes or dislikes as you do in a dog's performance. Therefore subjectivity enters the picture and there is absolutely no way it will be totally removed. I liken it to when employees get performance ratings on their jobs and even though there are objective standards the subjectivity is NEVER really eliminated. Until there is a total means of determining the better dog by a stringent set of objectives there will be counterfeit champions. I have seen it in nite hunts where the judges do not run and see it ALL and in fact see little until at the tree and I have even seen them go blind when their dog wasn't under the coon! I've also seen many hear their dog open when it was standing over in the woods to the right and another opened to the left. I've seen them cut off the lead and get 10 yards into the woods and open on each dump out to get the first strike. Been there, seen that and done that for years until I realized that the ole saying held true in that "A fool and their money soon part". Had a couple nice walkers when I quit and both only lacked a few points to become nite champions with both already having their first place wins when it dawned on me that those titles wouldn't even buy me a cup of coffee and in fact the process of earning them took the fun right out of con hunting and turned it into WORK without pay.

[rabbitearl]

I understand what you want in a dog.We are all different.The two dogs that were left were the two owners.They never used the word tally ho and I am not going to used it rabbit hunting.To me in rabbit hunting if I see a rabbit and any one of my dogs don t come to me when I call, just pay me no mind.I don t care how good they run a rabbit there gone.Somebody eles can feed them.I guess we all look at what a rabbit dog should be. Different.Thats the reason I like TCP trials.If we are mostly looking at a dog in trials on running a rabbit.OK now put me 4 dogs (just yours) that can run a rabbit.I like this trial the best.

To me in any trials you really cannot look at the hunting part.I used to do LP in the eary 90 and seen time running out and not a rabbit jump and maybe the less hunting dog in the cast see a rabbit come out from another dog but this dog dose not see it and the less hunting dogs win the cast. Sure we don t want the dog to lay down. But One of the best jump dogs I had in 38 years.(a true jump dog) never hunting hard.She is one of the biggest reason I don t have dogs now.If she went around a thick place and not in it.There s not a rabbit in it.She was smart.

Anybody that judges dogs.In any format can you say at the end.The dog that you pick out at the trial that day.was the best to rabbit hunt over? I cannot do it.I can pick out some sorry ones.

[Trackstar]

Think I might continue todo what I been doing (rabbit hunting) might send a few dogs somewhere to be campaign..... My style dog will never be around here anyways

[Bringem back kennels]

I don't think most of us are that different in what we want in a beagle.
We want a dog that jumps every rabbit, runs faster than Carl Lewis, runs the line as tight as a Dolly Parton brassiere! Not to mention...no 's.

The problem is that dog doesn't exist! So, we try and come up with the dog that is as close to that as we can. Another little secret for you...all dogs have holes in them.
Some even look like swiss cheese but, we put on our rose covered glasses and can't see them. They are a hunting buddy and we like them, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Somebody said judging is subjective, yes, anything you do that is competitive is subjective. Basketball referees make subjective calls all the time like (charge or blocking call), umpires...were the h*ll is the strike zone anyway?

Judging beagles is even more difficult, there is no way they can see everything that is going on every step of the way. There is heavy cover, speed of the hounds, terrain and
other variables that make this impossible. Judging is a thankless job that one guy wants to shake your hand and the others want to kick you a$$.

My opinion, if you only go to these trials for the sake of winning a ribbon a plaque or thumping your chest, you really are missing the good stuff.
Lots of good memories and friends are made in trials and just plain ole hunting beagles in general. Those memories hopefully will last longer than that dust covered ribbon anyways.

It wouldn't hurt to go up and shake the judges hand and thank him for his efforts even if you didn't win.

P.S. I have never judged a trial and I don't think I want to but, hats off to those that do.

[johns03272008]

I run mostly LP. LP does have set rules on scoring. LP you also have to take test to be field judge. I have seen good dogs be beat by the scoring system. Example- blue collar got strike and a check=35pts. 5 min left in cast white collar who hasn't done squat the whole cast steps on a rabbit, judge sees it, BOOM 40 pts for jump/strike. Hour time runs out, you just got beat by 5 pts even though your dog was dominate in cast. Judging in LP is a hard job! They run there ass of to make sure the best hound wins of that hour. I applaud them.

To me that's what few of y'all are referring to loop holes?
But the way I understand, by the way it sounds akc also as them too?

Example- following a particular judge around cause he prefers your hound style of running over another. Somebody stated AKC gives a seminar class to judge. Well that fine and a good thing, because I believe for trialling a judge should show some kind of proof for being capable of judging a cast of hounds, BUT what if judge I get prefers smooth hounds and mine is rougher than crap? Or vice versa? I'm not following one judge like a lost puppy!

When I first started running LP, they told me that LP was form for the rabbit hunter. That was reason for scoring jump/strikes, jumps, checks, and strikes. Best hound of the hour cast wins.
Akc has scoring but based on judge discretion.

Guys I got knews for ya!! You know why me are back and forth with the two???
Is because we all love to run those hounds. Ya, everybody wants a LPGRCH, or FC, but we wouldn't keep going back if we didn't love watching and running them dogs.

On another note! I ran in a PKC beagle trial other day. NOW that's a different breed of format. I enjoyed running in it but, the set rules need some fine tuning.

If you are saying judging Little Pack is HARDER than AKC then YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!! Run for maybe a hour if there is running in Little Pack, AKC you gonna be out there for normally no less than 3-4 hours but normally running from 8am'ish to 4pm'ish don't wanna hear how hard it is to judge little pack for a hour.

[rabbitatfarm]

One rule I would like to see changed in LP is that you can't win your cast with a negative score. Blue dog works his ass off, opens and gets a minus for non-producing. Other dogs have done little and have "zero" score. Who should win, one of the non-scoring dogs judged on "hunt and handle," or the one that worked? At a recent hunt, one of the champions had a -10 and he still placed in the hunt because there were only 7 dogs in the class. Seems if you can place a hound with a negative score, you should be able to win a cast with one negative score at the judges discretion. Just my two cents.

[Hwy 30 kennels]

John this is hwy 30 kennel not my buddy that got u going last week Ill say this much sounds like u take trailing like a job and don't enjoy it. Ill just tell u ol boy if I acted like u about trailing I would just give my dogs away not set foot back at a trail I go to trails to have fun, meet people and see dogs run! Get the picture it's not about who has the best club akc or LP it's about having fun.getting out of the house and meeting good folks!

[brad stewart]

I second that to many people forget how to have fun and just think bout wining I have fun win or loose I just like running dogs and seeing what's all out there and meeting new people

[BB Beagles]

GOOD LORD!!!!! Mr Sheling! Did you have a bad experience in a LP trial or what.
( judges work harder, you ain't gotta clue-- if there's any running at all). All I was saying is ya, a LP judges work there ass off. I've seen 1 judge go out 8 times before at a hunt, so IF ya can do the math, he judged 8 hrs that day.
And ya I will agree with ya. I don't have a clue bout AKC trial. Never ran in one due to there aren't any close to me really. I can tell ya this much. If guys in the AKC jump down ya throat like that,( YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE) ( AKC IS LIKE THE MAJOR LEAGUE, LP MORE LIKE AAA) I probally won't ever run a AKC trial.

I'm starting to think it's not the formats that have issues. Sounds like it's more the beaglers that do! I go to trials to ....
1-compete
2- assist my club if any help be needed
3-talk to and meet folks I haven't before
4-aggravate the pee out of my buddy's
5- watch diff hounds run, and how they run compared to mine
6-have a good time win or lose
7- try take somebody new or young with me, try get them involved.

Once you take the fun out of it, it's over! It turns more so into a chore than something fun. My issue with some of clubs is encouragement. A club should make anybody feel welcome and encourage them to come back. That might just be a southern thing though. I can say this much. I think some clubs see an outsider and try to run them off, so the locals will have less competition. I think lot of guys need to suck it up and just let the dogs run and if they got it, they got it, if they don't, they don't.

BTW??? Don't they get to ride horses in AKC trials. Idk cause I don't have a clue! Lol!!!