Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[Pine Lakes]

Very nice hound. A lot of folks can't notice it, very sad.

Who doesn't notice it? I challenge you to find one person that doesn't think that she is beautiful. As far as the picture of your hound, he sure as heck looks like most dogs ran in the Mid-West that I've seen since 1992. The only difference is that he isn't "ran up" like those competing in trials. The truth probably lies somewhere in between. The show beagles have been bred for generations to compete in shows while the performance dogs have been bred for the field since their conception. While you certainly can have, and I've seen, show dogs perform in the field they have not been bred for such. Therefore you can bet that they do not perform on game as consistantly as field tested and bred dogs. You can cherry pick a dog here or there to uphold your story, but I'll go with my experience and the things that I have personally witnessed.

While Mooredog's female is beautiful, is she any better looking than this dog?

Some would say yes and others no. Here are the AKC standards to use as a guideline.

Official Standard for the Beagle
Head: The skull should be fairly long, slightly domed at occiput, with cranium broad and full. Ears-Ears set on moderately low, long, reaching when drawn out nearly, if not quite, to the end of the nose; fine in texture, fairly broad-with almost entire absence of erectile power-setting close to the head, with the forward edge slightly inturning to the cheek-rounded at tip. Eyes-Eyes large, set well apart-soft and houndlike-expression gentle and pleading; of a brown or hazel color. Muzzle-Muzzle of medium length-straight and square-cut-the stop moderately defined. Jaws-Level. Lips free from flews; nostrils large and open. Defects-A very flat skull, narrow across the top; excess of dome, eyes small, sharp and terrierlike, or prominent and protruding; muzzle long, snipy or cut away decidedly below the eyes, or very short. Roman-nosed, or upturned, giving a dish-face expression. Ears short, set on high or with a tendency to rise above the point of origin.
Body: Neck and Throat-Neck rising free and light from the shoulders strong in substance yet not loaded, of medium length. The throat clean and free from folds of skin; a slight wrinkle below the angle of the jaw, however, may be allowable. Defects-A thick, short, cloddy neck carried on a line with the top of the shoulders. Throat showing dewlap and folds of skin to a degree termed "throatiness."
Shoulders and Chest: Shoulders sloping-clean, muscular, not heavy or loaded-conveying the idea of freedom of action with activity and strength. Chest deep and broad, but not broad enough to interfere with the free play of the shoulders. Defects-Straight, upright shoulders. Chest disproportionately wide or with lack of depth.
Back, Loin and Ribs: Back short, muscular and strong. Loin broad and slightly arched, and the ribs well sprung, giving abundance of lung room. Defects-Very long or swayed or roached back. Flat, narrow loin. Flat ribs.
Forelegs and Feet: Forelegs-Straight, with plenty of bone in proportion to size of the hound. Pasterns short and straight. Feet-Close, round and firm. Pad full and hard. Defects-Out at elbows. Knees knuckled over forward, or bent backward. Forelegs crooked or Dachshundlike. Feet long, open or spreading.
Hips, Thighs, Hind Legs and Feet: Hips and thighs strong and well muscled, giving abundance of propelling power. Stifles strong and well let down. Hocks firm, symmetrical and moderately bent. Feet close and firm. Defects-Cowhocks, or straight hocks. Lack of muscle and propelling power. Open feet.
Tail: Set moderately high; carried gaily, but not turned forward over the back; with slight curve; short as compared with size of the hound; with brush. Defects-A long tail. Teapot curve or inclined forward from the root. Rat tail with absence of brush.
Coat: A close, hard, hound coat of medium length. Defects-A short, thin coat, or of a soft quality.
Color: Any true hound color.
General Appearance: A miniature Foxhound, solid and big for his inches, with the wear-and-tear look of the hound that can last in the chase and follow his quarry to the death.

[WELLS WOODS]

Looks very similar; the arched loin adds athleticism. Who did AKC authorize to write the conformation standard? If it was a hunter & houndsman like Lew Madden, we might get more precise idea of what he meant by seeing old photos of his beagles. The show dogs are beautiful, but the shorter coupled hounds just can't keep up on a day when the hounds drive hard.
This has turned into a good discussion about conformation.

[littlewoody]

Blue sly kennel has some of best looking hounds I seen .

[littlewoody]

Blue sly kennel has some of best looking hounds I seen .

Then Howard and hd 2500 with those brammel hounds love those black & tans !

[gwyoung]

Pine Lakes, yes, there is a big difference in the hound you showed and mooredogs hound, If you don't see it that is o.k. and it was what I was talking about. Can you not see the huge difference in the two hounds, take it to an AKC show and you will see how fast they thank you for showing up and please come again while the other hounds move on. Now, I am not belittling your hound, they will tell me the same thing about mine, it simply is not in the same class as mooredogs hound and yes I do think most can see that. As far as me cherry picking a dog I have posted several pictures on this forum of my hounds pick any of them you want they will all look similar and no they do not look like what I see in Midwest. As far as my hound that I showed, Run all of the weight you want to off of him and his BACK will still be exactly the same length it is now. Wells woods hits it right on the head about the overly long backs , and when my beagles showed a picture of 5 hounds on the bench Wells woods picked the number 2 hound out as what he liked to see , why, look at the pictures, one couldn't tell much about the conformation but one could tell that the #2 dog he liked was LONGER than the others that is why he picked it. Now with that said the man likes what he likes , you like what you like and I am o.k. with that , but mid-west dogs that I have seen in no way resemble mooredogs hound , they don't even resemble mine. They are not close to the breed standard, but as I have said a hound doesn't have to be close to the breed standard to perform at a top level. About that cherry picking you mentioned, do you think the hound you showed is typical of the majority of wid-west hounds, it is not typical of what I have seen, even though it is closer to the typical Midwest than it is to a hound like mooredogs. Not trying to get you all huffy, keep it civil. Wells woods you mentioned for the second time that conformation is responsible for " foot". Do you really believe that tall athletic dogs pursue their game quickly because of their conformation, what happens when you encounter a tall athletic dog that runs about a 4 on speed, of which there are thousands , how do you explain that? Conformation does not determine speed , their blood does. Now this is only my opinion , dis-agree with it all you want ( and you already have, but keep an open mind you may change it ) keep it civil and keep it flowing.

[Pine Lakes]

I guess therein lies our disagreement. You think that the show beagles are the standard while I tell you that they are as flawed as the field dogs. If you read down the list of standards and can't find any faults with mooredog's female, then you obviously favor what the show dogs have become. You have been vague in your criticism of Mid-West dogs conformation. You only refer to show dogs which do not fit the standard of a working beagle and are not closer to the standard than many entered in Mid-West trials. Yes there are exceptions, as is the case with everything in life, but it is not the norm. My dog may very well get walked to the door in a show, but it would be by someone that only shows dogs and don't know their backside from a hole in the ground or the purpose of the beagle. It is more likely that their dog would get destroyed in the field by these non-conforming dogs. Once again, read the AKC standard summerization that I posted. If you favor "show dog" looks that's fine, but I discredit your assumption that the dogs run in Mid-West trials are further from the standard. The folks of show have destroyed more than one line of working dog. I would be impressed if someone that showed their beagles with success also had success in the field with the same dog. That hasn't happened in my lifetime of 43 years. Now, if you want to talk about the majority of Brace and UGBF dogs then we could probably find some common groung real quick.

I will agree with your statement about the geneology of a hound being the determining factor in performance instead of conformation. I do believe that the harder driving lines have maintained, or even improved upon, their structure to do so. It's only logical, but like I stated previously, there are exceptions. Certainly they are not perfect. Some are short on ear, crooked in the front, narrow in the snout, but that isn't the majortiy. The majortiy due however look like miniature foxhounds which again is the AKC description for general appearance. That may not win a show but it can sure burn a rabbit's arse up. If you don't believe me go watch a winner's pack or two. I doubt that a pack of show dogs could do the same.

[gwyoung]

Pine lakes you are NOT correct when you say I have been vague about mid-west dogs conformation, I really don't think most would consider slab-sided, rat-tailed short ribbed, long loin and over-all long back vague at all, but once again we don't seem to notice the same things. You say show dogs do not fit the standard of a working beagle, now who is being vague, tell us who's WORKING standard you are talking about, ( don't leave that answer out of your next reply) So anyone who would walk your hound to the door knows nothing about the purpose of the beagle, I assume in your opinion if a beagle doesn't have an excessively long back, short , flat sided ribs and such it can't fulfill the purpose of a beagle, very interesting. So anytime your hound doesn't place on the bench we know why, they obviously according to you don't know their backside from a hole in the ground. O.K. this will be my last reply to you as I hope to keep things civil and your opinion of what makes a well built hound differs from mine and AKC. breed all of the long snakes you want , I don't have a problem with it and as I have said that poor conformation will not hurt them in the field I have seen worse run all day, as have most. Another thing you are mistaken about ( getting to be a habit) is about hounds doing well in the field as well as AKC show. Mooresdog just showed you one and you have apparently forgotten about it already, but if you want to see real proof and just performing under the gun is not good enough for you one has to win trials. I remember Herman Perkoz finishing Pebble Ridge Shadrack a few years back as a Dual field champion , he won the required amount of AKC shows and the required amount of AKC field trial to be an AKC field champion, that happened in your 43 years. ( Just a little something else YOU learned today. Seems a lot has happened in your 43 years that you haven't been aware of, My last reply to you as your trying to save face reply would probably only turn ugly. that's the way it normally goes! One other thing I hope you are not implying, because I never said it. And that is that show dogs are going to make better rabbit dogs in general than field dogs I never said that and I never implied that. I said they have the physical ability to do the job as good as any, and they do.

[sbeagler]

Pretty is is pretty does.Poor conformation shows up often in poor performance SOMETIMES running out gas or cant keep up or worser getting nothing done, I might add you hear the dumb beautiful blonde jokes i guess this can be applied to dogs sometimes as well.I am thankful the Midwest Gundog Association came into existence and the northern hare associations and southern large pack. If it had not been for them the dogs we hunt with today would not exist.Most of these hounds are built right hammer a rabbit rather than pottering around making running a rabbit look hard.Other than some of the new city indian hills breeding most show dogs i seen would not have the toughness brains and nose to be capable of placing in a real gundog trial. I guess some the watered down versions calling themselves gundogs must be for hedgerow hunting only.Here there's huge woods cutovers thick thick brush and briars. Only a really talented hound can make it happen if you are gunning or looking for excitement.

[gwyoung]

sbeagler, I hope before I die I get to hunt at least once with you big he-man types. I have been running them for more than forty years , I started out running them in my grandmothers flower garden and I thought I had moved to the big leagues when I started running them down the ditch between the two roads where I lived at the time, I like most non- mid-West beaglers just run in the shrubbery around our houses, nowdays. Cutovers and Briars!!! Gosh all mighty ,do you MEN ever get scared ? I hope to have me a real hound sometime and you guys have got my appetite so whetted up for one I am going out and make one of my boxes a foot and a half longer just to be ready. Whew boy, If I ever go I will have to have another dog , briars and cutovers, darn, is there no end to toughness!!!

[WELLS WOODS]

You are misunderstanding me gwyoung about conformation & foot. I've never said or thought that conformation determines a hound's "foot" or how fast a dog wants to run a rabbit. I meant short coupled dogs don't have enough natural foot speed to keep up with the Mid-West longer bodied hounds on the drives; shorter strides & stiffer back compared to the " foxhound like" built hounds. The Mid-West & large pack hounds resemble a foxhound more than the show dogs do in the loins. There is a picture of a foxhound on page 4. Mentioning this breed in the AKC standard is a why I think they were wanting a more athletic hound than the short coupled show dogs.

[littlewoody]

Not casting any stones, I just think it needed to be clarified that the Midwest and large pack hounds are getting farther away from the AKC breed standard not getting better. Some may feel this is a good thing others may not and that's open for debate. My dogs look closer to a Midwest dog that anything but I'm definately paying more attention to the AKC standard and will try to make suttle improvements such is possible with my small operation.

Here are a few pics of my young dogs for criticism .....

Nice hounds my beagles !

[gwyoung]

Wells woods, ok if that is what you are saying, that is what you are saying. . But that brings up another interesting point. So you believe that body length is what determines speed? Dachshunds should really tear it up. Do you think that unless a hound has a really long body his legs keep hitting each other? if so look at the locomotion of a" Square "hound in slow motion and you might begin to think otherwise. If he couldn't run twenty miles an hour he couldn't run 10 either! Now, would an overly short back cause some problems yes, it could but show hounds will have less incidence of too short backs than will hunting hounds, snake-like mid-west type not included. Just because mid-west dogs have longer than necessary backs does not mean show hounds are too short. But if one is trying to justify overly long backs ( not you) he will probably say so. Show hounds at least the ones that place are built correctly and their legs don't get tangled up when they run. unless of deformity it is not conformation that determines foot. Now bigger hounds all things being equal can run faster for longer than small hounds this is not a function of long backs it is more of a function of long legs, this has nothing to do with conformation, now we are talking height and not length. that is why the classes are 13" and 15" high and not 36" and 48" long. By the way if you think those hounds that are running behind are running at their top speed let a sight chase break out in front of their face and you will see it differently. they have the physical ability to move quicker than they can pursue. No hound out there is pursuing scent at his top physically achievable speed he will do that on a sight chase though. Good running to you and my last word on the topic, let the reader decide !

[gwyoung]

I thought I was done but I also thought I had addressed all that was asked or said. I left out this part. Some use AKC as an authority and quoting them on the fact that they say the beagle should look like a miniature foxhound , first off a foxhound shouldn't have an overly long back either, but the part I find most interesting is when the AKC in the breed standard says a beagle should have a short back and that a long back is a defect they no longer want to use AKC as an authority. I guess we kind of use the Bible the same way we believe exactly what it says until it no longer agrees with us! For all that is interested type in AKC Beagle standard and it will direct you to the miniature foxhound comments as well as the short back description and the long back defect. Now this is my last word on this topic, If I forgot something else , it will remain forgotten, but I want to say this you have been good sports and I don't care if your hounds have long backs crooked legs, flat heads or whatever my experience has shown me that will not be the determining factor as to how long, fast , and hard they run, good luck with them!

[WELLS WOODS]

I think the loin area has a lot to do with foot speed & athleticism. The standard calls for a slightly arched loin. Show dogs are very straight (no arch ) in this area. It may look better to some, but how a hound moves in the field is more important & tells us more about proper running gear than standing them on a bench.

[sbeagler]

sbeagler, I hope before I die I get to hunt at least once with you big he-man types. I have been running them for more than forty years , I started out running them in my grandmothers flower garden and I thought I had moved to the big leagues when I started running them down the ditch between the two roads where I lived at the time, I like most non- mid-West beaglers just run in the shrubbery around our houses, nowdays. Cutovers and Briars!!! Gosh all mighty ,do you MEN ever get scared ? I hope to have me a real hound sometime and you guys have got my appetite so whetted up for one I am going out and make one of my boxes a foot and a half longer just to be ready. Whew boy, If I ever go I will have to have another dog , briars and cutovers, darn, is there no end to toughness!!!

Sounds like we got one thing in common we have been both running them more than 40 years. He man type dog is a wonderful description of what i expect out of a dog. Scared of what ? I make no claims to being the best breeder or beagler in the world but I have owned, finished, or bred dogs that have won NYHA high hound awards,COHA awards, placed in the Midwest run off twice, have become IFC, FTC, FC, ARHA CH, ARHA State Champions, UKC GRCH, UKC National Champion,UKC State Champions, placed and won from miss,la, ark, ky,in,il,oh,wv,ny, mass, vt, and CKC trials as well. Forgot my derby of the year won the National Beagle Club Large Pack Championship on cottontail combined sexes 13 & 15 combined showing size doesnt matter on wheeling a cottontail around.I have had a top 5 producing dam,I have bred UKC National Champion owned runner up better beagling high hound. I have traveled in some 14 states and two countries to hunt, trial, or run dogs. My dogs have placed or won on cane cutters, bluetails. hare, cottontail in LPH SPH SPO-C so not claiming there the best or I am best but have a clue what hunters like that do truelly hunt.The reason i say this I have seen like Dana (shady grove says ....... read if you wish I agree)Some association run hounds that are cobby unathletic looking dogs;they even run a rabbit how they look. They may be ok if you dont hunt or want a pet.Just cant candy coat it. I know several guys that run these trials admit they dont even hunt. I get call s every hunting season where someone has got ripped off buying this junk asking me where to find a good hunting dog. I am curious what are you running gwyoung what have you accomplished in 40 years besides having a good time. Thanks Mr Wells for your input your dogs are highly respected and contributed to the gundog breed north south east and west.