Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Good post. Most judges I've seen like the dog to take the track out to earn a check.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I like the idea of making the check time 10 seconds.
I think a lot of people need to remember just because your dog never shut his/her mouth of doesn't mean that they are not having 15 second checks or loses. On the same line just because the dogs have been broke down (not barking) for more than 15 seconds and your dog starts barking does not mean that your dog is moving a track and scoring points.
There are things that need changed in Little Pack and I am sure there are things that could be changed in all other formats to improve them as well.
I do not agree that the 3 minutes to produce a rabbit on a strike should be increased.
I think a lot of people need to remember just because your dog never shut his/her mouth of doesn't mean that they are not having 15 second checks or loses. On the same line just because the dogs have been broke down (not barking) for more than 15 seconds and your dog starts barking does not mean that your dog is moving a track and scoring points.
There are things that need changed in Little Pack and I am sure there are things that could be changed in all other formats to improve them as well.
I do not agree that the 3 minutes to produce a rabbit on a strike should be increased.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
It seems like there are many people in favor of changing checks to 10 seconds. When Shawn Sexton, who has judged as much anybody the last few years, and Jimmy Abshire who was around back in the day both see the need to shorten the check time, I think that says a lot.
Back when Everett Morgan first wrote the rules, the hounds in Little Pack were a lot different than the hounds now. The hounds today can run so much more rabbit at a much faster speed. There is nothing magical about 15 seconds. That was just a number set when Little Pack was first formed. Over time it makes sense to adapt the rules to best judge the hounds.
I still haven't heard any real reasons of why we should keep checks at 15 seconds. Judges might miss a few checks with scoring a shorter time, but there would be more opportunities for the best dog to score. A good fast dog would still beat a good dog that was a little slower.
It almost seems to me like the only reason we aren't changing is because that's the way it's always been. If there is some other reason, I would sure like to hear it.
Back when Everett Morgan first wrote the rules, the hounds in Little Pack were a lot different than the hounds now. The hounds today can run so much more rabbit at a much faster speed. There is nothing magical about 15 seconds. That was just a number set when Little Pack was first formed. Over time it makes sense to adapt the rules to best judge the hounds.
I still haven't heard any real reasons of why we should keep checks at 15 seconds. Judges might miss a few checks with scoring a shorter time, but there would be more opportunities for the best dog to score. A good fast dog would still beat a good dog that was a little slower.
It almost seems to me like the only reason we aren't changing is because that's the way it's always been. If there is some other reason, I would sure like to hear it.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I say leave it just because JCM wants it changed .
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, Ivan. It would be interesting to see what other ARHA leadership feels about this. I would sure like to read opinions from Fred Hausman, Klaiber, Chip, Mike Conti, Jeremy Woodling, Chris Dennison, and others.Brooksidebeagler wrote:I like the idea of making the check time 10 seconds.
I think a lot of people need to remember just because your dog never shut his/her mouth of doesn't mean that they are not having 15 second checks or loses. On the same line just because the dogs have been broke down (not barking) for more than 15 seconds and your dog starts barking does not mean that your dog is moving a track and scoring points.
There are things that need changed in Little Pack and I am sure there are things that could be changed in all other formats to improve them as well.
I do not agree that the 3 minutes to produce a rabbit on a strike should be increased.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I remember Billy and Merle telling me about a group of rabbit hunters meeting at a motel room and collectively establishing LP rules.
These weren't made up by some boys in New York City... jmho
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
I think you guys are on the right track. It is hard to put certain rules for a judge to go by when judging a pack of dogs running a rabbit. Most people want a smooth, close check working hound that is fast but under control. I hope the ARHA can figure out a way to promote that style of hound & cull the rough ,skirting, swinging,etc.. hounds.
That's what the AKC Mid-West tries to promote also. We just try to find two honest, knowledgeable beaglers that are athletic enough to see a lot of the running to judge each class. We have 4 classes though also. 13" & 15" of both males & females. We put every decision in the judges' hands. All they have to go by is their experience watching hounds in the field & thier knowledge of the AKC rulebook. If the class has 2 judges of high caliber, you will have the best field trial possible & the best hounds will be rewarded. If you don't have honest, hard working & knowledgeable judges you will have a mess & a trial not worth having at all. Most Mid-West clubs try to get judges that are well respected and known to be fair & honest in every situation. Also, clubs want judges that will run the dogs hard until they get to see enough of the running to make sound decisions. Nothing is perfect, but you have to admit, having to earn 3 wins & 120 points under a number of different judges is a tough challenge & in my opinion from what I hear & see, every Mid-West FC from the past & the ones finishing these days also have a good reputation of being a fine hound.
That's what the AKC Mid-West tries to promote also. We just try to find two honest, knowledgeable beaglers that are athletic enough to see a lot of the running to judge each class. We have 4 classes though also. 13" & 15" of both males & females. We put every decision in the judges' hands. All they have to go by is their experience watching hounds in the field & thier knowledge of the AKC rulebook. If the class has 2 judges of high caliber, you will have the best field trial possible & the best hounds will be rewarded. If you don't have honest, hard working & knowledgeable judges you will have a mess & a trial not worth having at all. Most Mid-West clubs try to get judges that are well respected and known to be fair & honest in every situation. Also, clubs want judges that will run the dogs hard until they get to see enough of the running to make sound decisions. Nothing is perfect, but you have to admit, having to earn 3 wins & 120 points under a number of different judges is a tough challenge & in my opinion from what I hear & see, every Mid-West FC from the past & the ones finishing these days also have a good reputation of being a fine hound.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
One other thing that I think should happen is clarify what "Hunting & Handling" means when breaking ties.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
How about rewarding dogs that run without causing a check? I've only attended 2 LP trials and in both instances we had a smooth running pack and the judge stated you won't score well if you don't cause some checks. Seems strange to me to reward hounds for causing breakdowns. Perhaps penalize the dog causing the check would help.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Seems to me a "Trial dog" and a hunting dog are getting farther and farther apart!!
If a dog doesn't have hunt or I can't handle him. I don't care how good he can run a line of pickup a check. He ain't staying in my kennel!!
Also on the 15sec check thing. I was running over the weekend and was timing the checks 15sec is a long time! A lot of checks are picked up in that 8-12 sec range. 10sec check would seem to make for a better score card!
I would say my dogs are a clean run to catch style and I say that because my pack will catch a rabbit or run a rabbit stiff. Usually takes atleast 45mins of clean running and minimal breakdowns for my dogs to catch the rabbit or run him stiff. 15sec is a long check!!!
Not knocking little pack. I love to watch the videos! Not my style but to each his own!!
If a dog doesn't have hunt or I can't handle him. I don't care how good he can run a line of pickup a check. He ain't staying in my kennel!!
Also on the 15sec check thing. I was running over the weekend and was timing the checks 15sec is a long time! A lot of checks are picked up in that 8-12 sec range. 10sec check would seem to make for a better score card!
I would say my dogs are a clean run to catch style and I say that because my pack will catch a rabbit or run a rabbit stiff. Usually takes atleast 45mins of clean running and minimal breakdowns for my dogs to catch the rabbit or run him stiff. 15sec is a long check!!!
Not knocking little pack. I love to watch the videos! Not my style but to each his own!!
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
5 second would be even better!
Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Not real sure that a breakdown needs to happen to score a check-perhaps a change of direction should be scored... I've seen whole packs of dogs run to the right and a dog in the middle run to the left. The dogs going to right barking the whole way then they quit and run to the only dog to make the turn. Why shouldn't the hound that was to the left be scored? It did after all save the race. Again and again.
Dave
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Jim I agree 100 % , 10 second checks would bring a better dog back in almost all cases ,And Ivan I think 3 minutes is a plenty of time to produce a rabbit. Would also agree that some form of awarding the dog that sticks with the track and minus the dog that seriously overruns it would help. The biggest complaint that I hear about little pack is ,little pack awards dogs for losing the track then recovering , why not have an ongoing clock , awarding the dog that did the most work keeping the track going , with extra points if also doing that while leading the pack , and minus points for serious overrunning while barking , which could be the whole pack , also minus points for running beside the pack waiting for the rabbit to turn ,my pet peeve. I love dogs that you dont need a gun to kill rabbits , but to do that you cannot have a check every 50 feet.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
a-dog you are still alive!!!!! Welcome back to the world of beagles. LOL.
Trust me 3 minutes is plenty of time to produce especially when it takes 3 minuses to get the dog out of the cast so you know you will be losing at least 9 minutes of a cast if you have a dog that barks early or just barks around. And trust me I have taken the walk of shame plenty of times.
Trust me 3 minutes is plenty of time to produce especially when it takes 3 minuses to get the dog out of the cast so you know you will be losing at least 9 minutes of a cast if you have a dog that barks early or just barks around. And trust me I have taken the walk of shame plenty of times.
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Re: Is it Time For 10 Second Checks in Little Pack?
Ivan, do you have any thoughts on tweaking the Hunting & Handling tiebreaker?
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