Brains, isn't it time you got yours

[warddog]

"Warddog don't take my comments here as a personal attack, even if I think that your ideology is wrong. Ultimately, what we keep in our kennels is our choice.

First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common. Along with that, you posted on a public forum what seemed to be atleast slightly derogatory comments using "opinion" as the slight. Everything is opinion. It starts with the opinion of which pup, or which female to breed, or which stud to use. Then onto the opinion if the dog is or isn't good enough to compete after months and months if not years of training. Then the opinions of the judges at each and every trial that the dog is entered in. I find it blatantly ignorant that all those "opinions" that go into making an AKC field champion are looked down upon by some, especially those that have not participated in more than 1 or 2 trials if any at all. Then they log onto a public forum and express their "opinion" that dogs ran in Mid-West trials aren't hunted and cannot run on snow. Not only is it stupid and childish, it's totally false. So while you're being offended by personal attacks, they may have been brought on by your offenses, even if not intended.

I am first and foremost a hunter, and always will be. My efforts to prepare hounds for trials are pale in comparison to many, but they are all in an effort to produce a better beagle. If you prefer to not test your hounds against other folks' that is absolutely your right to do so, but suggesting that trials are not productive, for lack of better words, is only your "opinion". Your opinion is wrong, but that is my opinion which I also have a right to express. Ultimately, no one puts more time, effort, and money into producing the best possible rabbit hounds than trialers do. To suggest that an individual can do a better job than the thousands entering beagles in trials will always be confronted on this site, and rightfully so.[/quote]

Pine Lakes, I take absolutely NO OFFENSE to someone giving their opinion which is exactly what you did and you are entitled to it. In keeping it real with what I posted, I also understand the time and effort getting a dog ready for a trail. Remember I used to competition coon hunt and did plenty of it for YEARS but some folks say that is NO experience in the trial game. So can we agree that I do know and understand what goes into that aspect of the game? You stated you did NOT agree with my ideology or visionary THEORY by saying " First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common" to which probably comes the rub between my ideology and many others that play the game. One BIG point that is failed to be brought into the discussion is HOW the best is derived at within these various competitions. Some have a point system awarded by judges(s) based upon specific actions as cited in a set of rules that they personally see or hear such as strike, opening, jumping, checking, losing or lack of opening in a timely manner, running the line and finally assuring the game is accounted for at the end of a circle or at the tree by personally seeing that game. Others have a set of traits that are judged without being awarded specific points for but rather at the total discretion of the judge(s). The one thing in common in ALL is that the means of determining the best of that specific trail be it AKC, UKC, or any other individual registry is the men judging them. PLEASE do not misconstrue what I am saying as NOT all judges are created equal because just as they come in all sizes , shapes and forms so do their interpretations of what is seen and or heard and in weighing it to whatever the set of standards are for that specific registry. Are we NOT back to the basis of my original posts of subjectivity and opinion rather than an absolute or a science? I think you even agreed that it was "all opinion" so how did I use that as a slight? I stated exactly that and have always done so in anything I have ever posted about beagling and even have stated I have NOT seen an boni-fide expert as of yet. I see a lot of opinions and so far from all of those opinions I have yet to see anyone be able to consistently produce the best even when they have titled dogs. I do see some kennels that do win and title dogs consistently from a line and even some outside that specific line. Knowing what I do know about the game I totally understand the time and effort it takes to get that done as a dogs potential is never brought out with them sitting in cage. The bottom line in this entire conversation is the end game of how do we get there. I have stated many, many times that when I trialed I TOTALLY understood and accepted the FACT that my dog as well as every other dog in the hunt was being judged subjectively even though in UKC nite hunts there are objective rules for awarding of the points which should determine the best of that hunt. YES, I understand that running a beagle in the day light is totally different than a coon hound at night BUT what they do has little bearing on how man perceives that. I guess that's why there are so many different formats in AKC where in nite hunts there are but one standard. It's been awhile since I hunted some PKC hunts but from what I can remember they were awarded points for the very same set of objectives with one more obstacle in the mix, MONEY rather than ribbons and trophys. I actually think you confirmed what I said when you said "Everything is opinion." I never said it was ALL bad and as hare chaser stated those of us who do not play the game with beagles are hoping that the vast majority have the same perception of what is the best as we rely on their OPINIONS for what we see in a pedigree. Of course along with what we see on paper we should see in the field in some form or another. If we can't see or hunt them then hopefully we can hunt some of their offspring to see what they are all about. I would expect the same from folks on these boards casting stones and making opinions about someone they do not know and have never seen. I have met few on these boards as I pretty much stay to myself and will say that all I have met were good guys and our opinions were NOT the same on many issues. ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.

I've always wanted to be the President, I've watched a few good war movies,even watched a little about politics on CNN, Hell I should be more than qualified to run for president. WOW

[warddog]

ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.

I've always wanted to be the President, I've watched a few good war movies,even watched a little about politics on CNN, Hell I should be more than qualified to run for president. WOW

I'd say you folks continue to make my point because you probably do have as much experience as many that are or have been in the candidate race. In fact as much as many past presidents have had. The difference is we don't have the name or money. There's NOT a single one of them that have had ANY actual experience in most of the things they are responsible for at the helm. I mentioned but one in Commander-In-chief but there are numerous others that they either gained their opinion on via watching something, reading something or being told something as ALL of them up there on that stage have absolutely NO actual experience in the military let alone in a time of war. If that is not a FACT then someone will have to show me some proof of them being in the regular military.

[sparky]

ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.

I've always wanted to be the President, I've watched a few good war movies,even watched a little about politics on CNN, Hell I should be more than qualified to run for president. WOW

Lamarr, I don't know about ole wardog,but I would vote for ya bud
Ya'll might as well quit arguing with him,it's a waste of time.
We'll be talking about the "law of the land" next.

[warddog]

I don't know any of your guys and you don't know me either but I may very well vote for one of ya as well. I will know as much about you as you do me or the candidates running for POTUS. Seems many want to judge from NEVER having met me and aired your opinions on what you have read and seen. I suppose you all think YOU are right and AGAIN you prove my point it's ALL subjective from what your interpretation having never have met, spoken to me personally and certainly never hunted with me. NO, you will not change my ideology as I will NOT accept an opinion as fact from anyone, period. if you can prove it to me by a means of some unbiased evidence then yes I will accept that as the rule of law. Minus that you are merely speaking of opinion and as we know we all have them. I suspect many agree with what I have said as I get PM's from folks who read the nay sayers of the group. Many do not care to get into these debates as they realize it is fruitless when the issues are based on opinions rather than fact. I will defend myself when personally attacked to my last breath and once AGAIN folks prove my point as you are judging not having ever met me. YES, there are a few on these boards that I have met and spoken dogs and hunting to and it seems we can have a knowledgeable conversation based on opinions formed from our own experiences over time of following the hounds in their pursuit regardless of the quarry. What I find interesting in a conversation will probably be totally different than what someone else finds interesting but what I do know is that birds of a feather will flock together as they have the same perspective BUT that does not make theirs or mine the only or correct one. It means we have different views with neither side being correct but merely relegated to our own opinions. We have to agree to disagree as that is also part of the game. When there is NO absolute, there is NO absolutely right or wrong and we are back to different strokes for different folks. Running of said trails in snow or in winter was NEVER anything that I commented on neither did I comment on any issue of a specific format but rather what I had concluded about overall competition in GENERAL. One does NOT have to compete personally to understand that there is a big difference when folks get together for an "organized" competition and a bunch of guys merely running their dogs. if there was no difference why do it then? I'm pretty sure I can determine which dogs are doing the best job when I am out on a casual rabbit hunting with friends and or relatives. believe it or not I have watched several videos right on these boards and can form an opinion of what dogs are doing the best job from what I see right here behind the screen. It's kind of like a sports competition to which I have attended in person and in front of the TV. Seems the best seat in the house is in front of the TV as I can look at a situation over and over again like instant reply. HEY, haven't they added more and more to that in competitions because those running along side do not see it all correctly? When I competed in sports there was NO such thing as a replay and the referees were part of the game and their opinion was final right, wrong or in between. That also sounds familiar! I think, I have made my point to those who are unbiased, so for those who can not debate with substance go ahead attack and sarcastically comment but I will NEVER say you have no experience or knowledge as you certainly do have or you could not comment on something without some but I also understand it to be just as mine OPINION and not fact. I am now done and agreeing to disagree.

[sparky]

I can agree to disagree too,but my final thought is - Nothing Compares to Experience. You have compared UKC Night Hunts,Watching Videos,Presidential Candidates & Instant Replay to Field Trials,if you honestly believe you can form an accurate opinion without ever actually being at a field trial then so be it. I happen to disagree,I don't think anything compares to actual hands on experience. I also disagree with you that the judges are there just to give an opinion, If that really was the case instead of running their butts off to see as much as possible an writing it down on their score cards they could just stand back by the trucks an give their opinion on which dogs they thought did the best job an go home,it obviously doesn't work that way,although people always seem to think they see it all from the Gallery

I'm an electrician, One time they sent this young guy in on a job,he was very educated but had little actual experience,he came in telling me how to do my job,we butted heads an the boss told me to do it his way. Long story short I had to go back an rewire everything,the young fella no longer works for us,and I ended up with a raise. My point is nothing Compares to Actual Hands On Experience,and I'll never change my mind on that. I'm done too,and we can agree to disagree.

[warddog]

My cousin who is my hunting partner and has been my entire life is a retired electrician as well. He was also on the union electrician apprenticeship board and trained many in the trade on the job. Before he ever laid a hand on any electrical wiring OJT he learned generalities from the bookwork, then he went on to the OJT part of the apprenticeship. I have never and will never disagree that experience is NOT the best teacher and if I were hiring someone it would be the one with the most actual experience in the profession I was needing help for. I have always felt that book learning and a degree did NOT necessarily denote knowledge, skill and abilities. I have absolutely no formal training or vast experience in electricity and as a matter of fact am afraid of it. I will say that even at that I have worked with my cousin doing things here at my house and his to be able to have enough experience and insight to do the basic stuff myself. When we had our home built he and I set the conduit and boxes inside the concrete forms for the poured concrete basement so that it was all inside the pour and then wired it all. The concrete contractor said he would NOT be responsible for it as he said it could not be done BUT I did not want all the piping exposed. He and I wired my pole barn as well as my deer processing area with walk in cooler. I will be the first to say that I am absolutely NO expert in electricity nor do I profess to be but from having seen it done via videos on the computer, talking to my cousin and seeing it done, I do know what is expected in the end result. I will again say that I can ABSOLUTELY NOT make all those bends in the conduit to make an electrical job look and be professional BUT I do know what it takes for that to happern and what the end product should look like when getting the best job done. I am not anything close to being anything electrical BUT I do know what the end product should look like and although I can NOT do all the stuff in the middle from start to finsish I do know what the end product should look like when done professionally and the results that may happen when it is NOT. I thought maybe you were an electrician as your handle made me think as much so I totally understood your example. The truth is I have heard the exact same type stories from my cousin with some changes to it. He has said that very same thing about young apprentice as well as older journeyman electricians BUT the difference is that a young inexperienced electrician was never allowed to do much without on site supervision BUT the ones he had to go back and rewire or correct were the supposed journeyman who did it without supervision because they had the years of hands on but yet still screwed it up. So again we are back to NOT ONE size fits all and subjectivity. One would think that years of hands on experience would be the best and normally it is BUT then here comes subjectivity and individualism that breaks the mold even though there are laws, rules and regulations that supposedly MUST be adhered to in the electrician trade (code) that evidently HAS NOT always happened. YES we can agree to disagree but even your scenario proves my point that there was subjectivity. You spoke of a young electrician maybe not out of school long with little experience and I don't understand why such an important job would have one doing it alone if not assured of them having enough experience to do the job correctly. Maybe there were circumstances that caused the error. I suspect that this individual was of the opinion that they saw and judged what they did to be correct as I am sure they would not have purposely did it wrong. Truth is he evidently made a bad judgement for what ever reason that may be but the best was NOT the end result although the customer expected and probably paid for a job that should have met the objectives (rules) of the project. Evidently it did not as someone had to go back and do it over which was lucky that they had the chance to do so. Thanks for the reply as your story was a similar one I had been familiar with over the 40 years my cousin was an electrician. Seems his experience of experienced or not so experienced folks in a trade shows variance in judgement as well.

[Casey Harner]

Whoop that dead horse some more, I think I saw it move!

[barnold1]

Is it lack of brains that leads to babbling? Per the rules: the inability to formulate a reply without constantly typing a screenful of text demonstrates a lack of succcinctness and is therefore considered a fault...

[Hare Chaser]

Is it lack of brains that leads to babbling? Per the rules: the inability to formulate a reply without constantly typing a screenful of text demonstrates a lack of succcinctness and is therefore considered a fault...

[S.R.Patch]

Is it a lack of brains that leads to Me-tooing? per the rules: The uncontrollable need to sound off without aiding or contributing to progress in unraveling a problem,ie...the false need to be heard as being apart of, is therefore a fault...
Judgmental blindness may also be a contributor of us all without a looking glass. If you've ever scalded chickens in a kettle, you'll know the water is just right when you can see your reflection just before the boil. You don't want it hot enough to start cooking, but just in a few seconds to loosen the feathers.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

You have compared UKC Night Hunts,Watching Videos,Presidential Candidates & Instant Replay to Field Trials,if you honestly believe you can form an accurate opinion without ever actually being at a field trial then so be it. I happen to disagree,I don't think anything compares to actual hands on experience. I also disagree with you that the judges are there just to give an opinion, If that really was the case instead of running their butts off to see as much as possible an writing it down on their score cards they could just stand back by the trucks an give their opinion on which dogs they thought did the best job an go home,it obviously doesn't work that way,although people always seem to think they see it all from the Gallery

Good Post Chuck..

[S.R.Patch]

If it were not of opinion and there were a fast hard set of rules written that offered no variance left to subjective interpretation, there would be no room or need for all the varying types of trials. One has to only look at the facts and the resulting types of trailing hounds in competition to see, interpretation and opinion are what drive the wheel of variation from the one set of rules we have upheld by AKC.
Also, back in the early 90's there was a fellow came up home and put on a trail he called mid-west style, I think his name was Johnny New. I didn't care for it then as it made a rabbit wise hound look bad at a check and required them to anchor so long in the check as to have lost the track entirely, in some cases.
When Little Pack evolved in speed in the ARHA to the point that many thought Progressive pack was needed as a separate entity to compete a more controlled hound, it showed that the only thing constant in trialing was change. All again due to interpretation and opinion.

I agree with Lamarr, good post and point well made. Today is different, this is not your father's Oldsmobile and I hold little faith today's midwest trial may be what I saw back then when Johnny was the judge.

[les guynn]

What a bunch of crap to talk about or argue over. It's all up to the JUDGE anyway, He can only make a judgment call on what he saw any way. Brains goes out to a lucky dog that's in the right place at the right time.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

I've been to all of them SR Patch, UKC HH & PP, ARHA LP & PP, AKC SPO & LP. I like Little Pack & Midwest,I also enjoyed Large Pack on Hare. When I went to the different formats most guys already know what style dog to take. I do agree with Chuck that judging is more than just an opinion,I've ran Little Pack since the 80's and a 15 second Check is still a 15 second Check,it was worth 25 points then an it's worth 25 points now,same thing with a Jump an so on an so forth. I also agree with les guynn,the judges can only go by what they see.