Formats, Foot,and Style

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Big River Beagles S
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Big River Beagles S »

AMEN Pine lakes
That is one of the best post I have seen in a long time. Every beagler in the world young or old should read this post and learn from it.

Newt
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Newt »

Big River Beagles S wrote:AMEN Pine lakes
That is one of the best post I have seen in a long time. Every beagler in the world young or old should read this post and learn from it.
X2
Many times, when the scenting conditions are bad, you can put that lead/fast dog back in the dogbox and the line runners will save the day/hunt.
Speed may earn ribbons but it doesn't run cottontails, its nose, intelligence, independence and patience.

Ron Conroe
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Ron Conroe »

It all comes down to run what you like. There is not a perfect dog out there, but there is a lot of kennel blindness.

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Say what you want, it takes foot to win in the Mid-West. Check dogs win because they are quick to find the check & can move it out fast. Check dogs without the foot to go with it will get blown away. Name one hound that ran slow to medium speed & ran no front end that has finished in the Mid-West. I've never seen one. I hate fast dogs that can't control the line, but some of them can & they are what wins. Guys that do well in both LP-hare & SPO-rabbit usually can train on rabbit before going to a Mid-West trial or vice -versa. It's a lot easier to run a track fast that has more scent & runs in a straight line. It takes experience to be able to adjust to running something with less scent that cuts, zig-zags & turns like a rabbit does & run it the right way with speed & control.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by main event`s beagles »

WELLS WOODS wrote:Say what you want, it takes foot to win in the Mid-West. Check dogs win because they are quick to find the check & can move it out fast. Check dogs without the foot to go with it will get blown away. Name one hound that ran slow to medium speed & ran no front end that has finished in the Mid-West. I've never seen one. I hate fast dogs that can't control the line, but some of them can & they are what wins. Guys that do well in both LP-hare & SPO-rabbit usually can train on rabbit before going to a Mid-West trial or vice -versa. It's a lot easier to run a track fast that has more scent & runs in a straight line. It takes experience to be able to adjust to running something with less scent that cuts, zig-zags & turns like a rabbit does & run it the right way with speed & control.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Show Me Kennels »

FCGD AJ's Levitra
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These two dogs never ran the front And consistently placed and won Duke also won HOY and the runoff with 26 little males when he was 7. Mr Wells I would never get on here and try to brag about my dogs but I just had to say something about this you said to name you one and I gave you two examples there are also other dogs that didn't always run the front and won as well. A rabbit dog will always find a way to put you back on track. Its has nothing to do with speed. And everything to do with brains
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BB Beagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by BB Beagles »

Guys this post has gotten a little off line, bout like a dog skirting! Lol!
I have stated in my past post that I usually run ARHA LIL PACK due to it being more available in my area. I have also ran PKC format a few times. My hounds lack no foot for either one. Lil Pack has got notorious for running a rough hound. That is not true. I have seen quite a few good line running hounds. I've also seen extremely fast hounds to medium speed hounds win.
My hounds have good foot, run a good line, no swinging/skirting, and proper use of their mouths. I have been beaten in lil pack format by rough hounds, and by lesser hounds, due to format rules. One thing bout lil pack is your never sure of what kind of pressure that can be put on your hound. (Mouthy, big running, tight running, line running, swinging dogs,terrain, weather, etc.) So I try make sure my dogs can handle pressure before I start them in a trial.

AKC Mid west dogs I have a pretty good idea on what it takes to partake in that format. I have seen a few FCGD run. They perform in the same perspective I run/ want my dogs to perform.

There is an AKC club really close to me, but have always been told they run a slower type hound. Idk if it is like UBGF or what, but had a friend participate in a big trial they had. I asked him, you run mid west why are you going. He said they also put on AKC SPO also. Not a 100% sure but I believe he got picked up for being to footy. That is a question I have. Does it depend on the judges that are judging or what? Just because it SPO how would you know if your to fast or slow?

Same goes for UKC. You have diff formats of it. Can someone explain style of them.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

The first thing an average guy/ rabbit hunter says after watching his first AKC Mid-West trial is that the dogs have more foot that what they are used to running at home. Also, when I say foot, I'm talking about the line runners, not the swingers, slashers & over competitive hounds. Some of the same guys argue this issue both ways. I can't believe a good hound will never have run the front. When they get a check, they are on the front aren't they? At least until something comes & takes it away from them. I wouldn't like a dog that wasn't competitive enough to try to run a rabbit as fast as they could & I've never seen a judge that did either & I've judged with a lot of them. We don't want a hound that cheats to get the front, but they should be able to push the rabbit pretty hard when they have the chance;" pursue with intent to overtake " is what the rulebook says. A dog doesn't have to be on the front all the time, but should if it has a chance & can control the line. Front end under control is good, front end out of control will get you to the box quick like.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by sparky »

WELLS WOODS wrote:Front end under control is good, front end out of control will get you to the box quick like.
This is absolutely true, but they don't have to be a front end dog to win a field trial, some dogs can slot up an still fill the score card up with enough score to get the blue ribbon.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Show Me Kennels »

Boom!
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by fastone »

Sparky and Show me seem like 2 wise men.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

They don't have to be a front end dog all the time, but a winner that runs NO front ? Good luck with that; sounds like a weak pack of hounds.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by mike crabtree »

That male Danny Vansickle had out of Buddys Iron Eagle could score too >
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by sparky »

mike crabtree wrote:That male Danny Vansickle had out of Buddys Iron Eagle could score too >
I think the male your talkin about is Howard's Bandit.
Pine Lakes wrote:All this talk of speed and foot is so unimportant IMO. Ask anyone that's seen Howard's Bandit, Spencer's Turbo Babe, Arkmo's Boomer, and a host of others win a trial. They clean up messes made by faster, faulty hounds and are not influenced by them. Their focus on running the track supersedes any desire to race with pack mates and that is what makes them a deserving champion.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

A dog that is a winner in my book has to be up there near the front on the drives contributing to the pack. When they get a check, they drive it out as fast as possible & hold it together. When they break down, they should search close, quietly & quickly. A dog that lags behind or coasts along in the middle of the pack, letting the faster dogs run the track until they make a bobble & then start looking for the turn isn't your best dog. They are feeding off the pack too much in my opinion. If they are up there running the track as fast as they can & turn the rabbit out of the pack then that is real talent & the type we should be looking for in my opinion. The front dogs are going to mess up some because they are doing the most work, but if they can snap back at the point of loss & work the check the right way be able to keep the rabbit going that's all you can ask for. Dog's that want the front too much and don't have the ability to handle the track will have faults like racing, overrunning, skirting, running mute, swinging, laying bad lines, etc. & a good judge will cull them quickly most of the time. I'd rather have a medium speed dog or pack that ran the rabbit correctly than this reckless, hit & miss style of dog. The Mid-West trials usually have some very competitive hounds entered that want to run the rabbit as fast as possible. We want to find the dogs that can control the track & keep it moving without making many mistakes. A Field Champion caliber of hound can usually push the rabbit pretty hard & at the end of the trial when you are down to the best hounds of the day, there is usually some great running with hounds that know how to be competitive, but still under control of the rabbit. If you are still having so much faulty running, that an anchor dog that cares nothing about driving the rabbit can win, then something is wrong. It's either bad judging or lack of talent in the field to start with. The dogs/FC's mentioned that were known for their checkwork & ability to turn the rabbit also had plenty of foot, they just ran the rabbit the right way & were very competitive when it came to finding the check. Quickness in the check area is very important also. These FC's were able to drive the rabbit really well by themselves when they found it & had their fair share of the front end in those trials. I haven't seen a hound finish in the Mid-West that wasn't competitive enough to run the rabbit as fast as conditions allowed him to. I haven't seen all of them in the last 5 years, but I would not like my chances at a Mid-West licensed trial if my dog didn't have plenty of foot with control. Conditioning is very important too. If you're lucky enough to make the winners pack, the dogs normally are ran very hard. I hope this can clear up some of the confusion about what I'm meaning when I say a dog needs foot to win. Foot with accuracy & close checkwork is what we are looking for. I was known as being on the conservative side when I judged. I wanted dogs to work close first on a lose & spread slowly using their brains & nose to figure out where the rabbit went. I didn't like dogs that left the check area too soon or barked while looking for the check for no reason. When they found the lose, they should open loud & quickly & be able to move it out & prove themselves. I didn't like a hound to sneak out with the line without barking much or at all to get an edge on the other dogs. On the drives, I scored the dogs that were focused on the line, giving good tongue & not the ones racing, skirting, running mute or running off to the side of the line runners. I like a dog that knows when he can use his speed to make up some distance quick on a rabbit & also when to slow down on terrain that holds less scent. I also learned to overlook minor mistakes if the good in a hound outweighed the bad. I think most of us pretty much agree on how a dog is supposed to run a rabbit, but a lot of stuff gets taken the wrong way or out of context that leads to disagreements. The Mid-West has been promoting this style from the beginning & it has taken a lot of hard work & dedication from many people through the years to keep the gundog movement going. It's safe to say there are a lot more quality rabbit hounds out there today than when it started & the Mid-West Association was a big part in making this happen. I hope we keep rewarding the best hunting dogs entered in our trials & the breed keeps getting better & better as we continue to strive for perfection.
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