Formats, Foot,and Style

[Newt]

If opinion doesn't play into choosing the winner, doesn't the UBGF use the same rule book?

[sparky]

When a judge sees a dog drive a track an carry the line they write it down as positive score,when they see a dog jump a rabbit they write it down,when they see a dog get a check they write it down,when they see a dog make a turn they write it down. When a judge sees a dog swing,skirt,backtrack,give extra mouth,blow over the end,so on an so forth they write it down as negative score.

The Midwest federation runs anywhere from a 6-10 on speed,and some of the dogs (not all) are pretty aggressive an competitive, The Midwest obviously runs a little more foot speed an a little more aggressive running style than the UBGF, that's probably why one is called the Midwest an the other one is called the UBGF,because there is a difference between the two styles, "Most folks already know an understand that".. If judging was about opinions,then I guess there wouldn't be no point in keeping score. I cant figure out why some folks don't understand this.

[warddog]

When a judge sees a dog drive a track an carry the line they write it down as positive score,when they see a dog jump a rabbit they write it down,when they see a dog get a check they write it down,when they see a dog make a turn they write it down. When a judge sees a dog swing,skirt,backtrack,give extra mouth,blow over the end,so on an so forth they write it down as negative score.

The Midwest federation runs anywhere from a 6-10 on speed,and some of the dogs (not all) are pretty aggressive an competitive, The Midwest obviously runs a little more foot speed an a little more aggressive running style than the UBGF, that's probably why one is called the Midwest an the other one is called the UBGF,because there is a difference between the two, "Most folks already know an understand that".. If judging was about opinions,then I guess there wouldn't be no point in keeping score. I cant figure out why some folks don't understand this.

I get all that BUT what determines driving a track, a jump, a check, making a turn, swinging, skirting, backtracking or extra mouth etc. Yes, I also understand there are definitions for all these but are you telling me that a judge or judges see the rabbit each and every time these things are written down and that everyone in the cast agrees with what was seen?

"If judging was about opinions" that is EXACTLY the definition! When someone is making a conclusion about something in which they have not witnessed the entire picture they are giving an opinion. That opinion is based on the best set of circumstances they are aware of BUT NOT those they personally witnessed but rather what they assume occurred from what was presented to them.

"It appears to me that your suggesting "opinion" involves a measure if personal bias or dishonesty." No MYBEAGLES I am NOT suggesting any dishonesty but YES, personal bias is just a matter of human nature and it cannot be totally eliminated from a judgement. The courts are full of thousands of TRIALS every day and a judge or judges if there is a jury trail form an "OPINION" on the evidence presented. Minus them being there at the time it all occurred and witnessing it EXACTLY as it played out they are forming an opinion on the evidence that they are presented with. They then come to a conclusion by the preponderance of the evidence. The preponderant evidence is what an individual feels carries more weight, importance, significance or strength and even that is in the eye of the beholder.

No, I am not suggesting that there is any malice what-so-ever in any trail nor am I knocking any one format. I'm merely saying that the system may be as good as it can get but it is what it is a judgement or opinion that makes the final decision. There have been many, many cases where decisions have been made and then when scrutinized via more complete viewing of circumstantial evidence that decision was overturned. Happens via instant reply in sports events and happens ALL the time in trails where folks are sent to prison or found guilty and overturned upon appeal.

[Show Me Kennels]

Because some folks don't want to. Some folks would rather set back and talk sh*t about the judges and tell them what there doing wrong instead of doing there part to better it. If you don't trial thats fine its not for everyone I understand, but Don't knock the guys that do enjoy it Just because you may have had a bad experience and didnt do as well as you thought you should've.

[sparky]

I get all that

I really don't think you do.
For a guy that doesn't field trial an has never been to an AKC trial before you sure do like to TALK about them.

Some folks would rather set back and talk sh*t

Pretty Much..

[randy hicks]

AKC rule book section 4 page 9 and page 40 7-k says it all...

[WELLS WOODS]

rrizdon, I judged a lot of trials from the early 90's to 2007. It's a thankless job. Especially from new guys that finish a dog & suddenly think they know it all. My knees started going out on me & I had to quit. If you give a 110% to try to see enough to make educated decisions, you will wear your body out over time. Some judges won't have to worry about that. A dog doesn't have to be a front runner to be a winner, but a dog satisfied with the middle of the pack & never tries to run the front at all will have a hard time finishing. Back when I judged, most of the best dogs in the Association would be there & you really earned a win when you got it. Now with so many trials, there are some cheap wins given. Thank God for the 120 point rule to become an AKC FC or there would be some very mediocre FC's today. Prime Time was a front end dog & Spring was a the type that could turn it out of the pack, but could hold the front when she got a check. I've seen great hounds from about every bloodline. The dogs I remember the most are the ones that could run the front or walk it out & proved to be the superior dog, regardless of scenting conditions.

[Pine Lakes]

A couple of folks could argue about foot and style until the cows come home, and still won't come to an agreeable conclusion. It's the nature of people in the field trialing world. All I know is that some dogs are physically faster than others and the trials that I've seen there are rarely dogs that can't keep up with the pack. I think it's safe to say that none of us would prefer the slower hound that isn't accomplishing more than its faster packmates. However, there are standards set that are more descriptive about how a beagle should pursue its game rather than the rate at which it is doing so. The biggest problem I see in the Mid-West trials is hounds that are over competative and more interested in outrunning packmates than driving the line. Keep in mind that there is no perfect hound, and when we(field trialers/judges) focus more on style rather than accomplishment, the end result is the brace trial hound of no use. Here are a couple of examples out of the AKC standard book that jump out at me because I'm seeing dogs win that consistently do these things:
1. Racing is attempting to outfoot running mates without regard for the trail. Racing hounds overshoot the turns and generally spend more time off the trail than on it.
2. Cooperation is the ability to work harmoniously with other hounds by doing as much of the work as possible in an honest, efficient manner, yet being aware of and honoring the accomplishments of running mates without jealousy or disruption of the chase.
3. Competitive spirit is the desire to outdo running mates. It is a borderline quality that is an asset only to the hound that is able to keep it under control and to concentrate on running the game rather than on beating other hounds. The overly competitive hound lacks such qualities as adaptability, patience, independence and cooperation, and in its desire to excel is seldom accurate.
4. Ghost trailing is pretending to have contact with a trail and making progress where no trail exists, by going through all the actions that indicate true trailing. Some hounds are able to do this in a very convincing manner and Judges, if suspicious, should make the hound prove its claim.
5. Racing is attempting to outfoot running mates without regard for the trail. Racing hounds overshoot the turns and generally spend more time off the trail than on it.
6. Bounding off is rushing ahead when contact with scent is made, without properly determining direction of game travel.

Maybe a better way to go about this is to ask a question. If at a trial, and a hound pulls a pack across an open, plowed field barking with no trail and no pack mates joining in on claiming the line, then turns around and barks going the other way for a short distance before realizing that no other hound is going to play that game, would you give that dog the win?

What is surprising to me is that I personally know guys that have owned some of the best hounds I've ever seen, who were deserving of their title and breedings tolerate this crap. I don't wish anyone ill will. Rather only the best, but when you don't look at the ENTIRE picture, you're not getting an accurate assessment. When this happens, you'll see it in the field. I've been there guys. You get a dog that is just flat exciting to watch run and you find reasons to overlook things that should be red flags.

With that said, I judged the 15' derby class at Great Miami Sunday and that was a fantastic group of young hounds. The winner was clear, but all those young hounds' owners should be proud because they did a darn fine job and smoked that rabbit for well over an hour. Every single placing hound contributed well to that chase without being over competitive. There was no bounding off, racing, or ghost trailing that I witnessed and the quality of the run reflected a pack of hounds in cooperation to accomplish what they were bred to do.

Let me make it clear that there is no one out there that I dislike or wish anything but success for. Even those that own the dogs that I witnessed doing the things mentioned should be proud of their hounds accomplishments. Therein lies the moral of the story, if you have success and are fortunate to finish a hound then enjoy it because it takes a ton of hours in the field, dollars, and time away from loved ones, and no one should dampen your spirits. You have to determine what you want and what you will tolerate in your hounds. No one should do that for you, but when you bring them to a trial then the judges are expected to base there decisions on what is interpreted in the AKC standards book and you're subjecting your hound to the public. Opinions will form based on truths and misguided beliefs so my advice is to pay attention to your own kennel, run 'em hard, and cull them harder. I don't know if that's even worth $.02, but there it is anyway.

[warddog]

A couple of folks could argue about foot and style until the cows come home, and still won't come to an agreeable conclusion. It's the nature of people in the field trialing world. All I know is that some dogs are physically faster than others and the trials that I've seen there are rarely dogs that can't keep up with the pack. I think it's safe to say that none of us would prefer the slower hound that isn't accomplishing more than its faster packmates. However, there are standards set that are more descriptive about how a beagle should pursue its game rather than the rate at which it is doing so. The biggest problem I see in the Mid-West trials is hounds that are over competative and more interested in outrunning packmates than driving the line. Keep in mind that there is no perfect hound, and when we(field trialers/judges) focus more on style rather than accomplishment, the end result is the brace trial hound of no use. Here are a couple of examples out of the AKC standard book that jump out at me because I'm seeing dogs win that consistently do these things:
1. Racing is attempting to outfoot running mates without regard for the trail. Racing hounds overshoot the turns and generally spend more time off the trail than on it.
2. Cooperation is the ability to work harmoniously with other hounds by doing as much of the work as possible in an honest, efficient manner, yet being aware of and honoring the accomplishments of running mates without jealousy or disruption of the chase.
3. Competitive spirit is the desire to outdo running mates. It is a borderline quality that is an asset only to the hound that is able to keep it under control and to concentrate on running the game rather than on beating other hounds. The overly competitive hound lacks such qualities as adaptability, patience, independence and cooperation, and in its desire to excel is seldom accurate.
4. Ghost trailing is pretending to have contact with a trail and making progress where no trail exists, by going through all the actions that indicate true trailing. Some hounds are able to do this in a very convincing manner and Judges, if suspicious, should make the hound prove its claim.
5. Racing is attempting to outfoot running mates without regard for the trail. Racing hounds overshoot the turns and generally spend more time off the trail than on it.
6. Bounding off is rushing ahead when contact with scent is made, without properly determining direction of game travel.

Maybe a better way to go about this is to ask a question. If at a trial, and a hound pulls a pack across an open, plowed field barking with no trail and no pack mates joining in on claiming the line, then turns around and barks going the other way for a short distance before realizing that no other hound is going to play that game, would you give that dog the win?

What is surprising to me is that I personally know guys that have owned some of the best hounds I've ever seen, who were deserving of their title and breedings tolerate this crap. I don't wish anyone ill will. Rather only the best, but when you don't look at the ENTIRE picture, you're not getting an accurate assessment. When this happens, you'll see it in the field. I've been there guys. You get a dog that is just flat exciting to watch run and you find reasons to overlook things that should be red flags.

With that said, I judged the 15' derby class at Great Miami Sunday and that was a fantastic group of young hounds. The winner was clear, but all those young hounds' owners should be proud because they did a darn fine job and smoked that rabbit for well over an hour. Every single placing hound contributed well to that chase without being over competitive. There was no bounding off, racing, or ghost trailing that I witnessed and the quality of the run reflected a pack of hounds in cooperation to accomplish what they were bred to do.

Let me make it clear that there is no one out there that I dislike or wish anything but success for. Even those that own the dogs that I witnessed doing the things mentioned should be proud of their hounds accomplishments. Therein lies the moral of the story, if you have success and are fortunate to finish a hound then enjoy it because it takes a ton of hours in the field, dollars, and time away from loved ones, and no one should dampen your spirits. You have to determine what you want and what you will tolerate in your hounds. No one should do that for you, but when you bring them to a trial then the judges are expected to base there decisions on what is interpreted in the AKC standards book and you're subjecting your hound to the public. Opinions will form based on truths and misguided beliefs so my advice is to pay attention to your own kennel, run 'em hard, and cull them harder. I don't know if that's even worth $.02, but there it is anyway.

Very well stated.

I get all that

I really don't think you do.
For a guy that doesn't field trial an has never been to an AKC trial before you sure do like to TALK about them.

YOU are correct, I do NOT trail beagles but have been to a trail or two in my time and spent many, many days at the local AKC president's place buying dogs, having pups started and running with him as well as others that trailed there. I've got plenty of experience in watching dogs that these guys thought were the best in their opinion. I doubt you have played professional football, baseball or basketball but I would say you sure would think you were qualified to give an opinion about a referees call. Most of us do but yet few of us have participated in any of those competitions other than sand lot, let alone at the professional level.

YES, I get it and I also get that your opinion is NOTHING more than YOUR opinion because you do NOT know a thing about me. if my opinion is not liked or agreed with TOUGH it is mine and just as you are entitled to yours, others are entitled to theirs that may or may not line up with yours. But PLEASE do not try to pull the ole YOU haven't done it, so you know nothing about it spiel of trying to justify your opinion. This thread right here is but another prime example of how the opinions are all over the place and folks want to deny that is the case. I will digress to one of the BIG issues that has been hashed on here numerous times that is at the forefront of most beagle trials and that is what is 15" and how is that judged. What is it guys, rack em up, stack em up, lay em down or turn em over on their backs with their legs fully extended!








Post by WELLS WOODS » Mon May 16, 2016 5:12 pm

" I judged a lot of trials from the early 90's to 2007. It's a thankless job. Especially from new guys that finish a dog & suddenly think they know it all." Seems their opinion and yours differed but the language of the rules were the same.

[sparky]

Well said Pine Lakes.

[WELLS WOODS]

Nice post Pine Lakes. It's a good feeling to put together a nice winners pack of dogs that can do it the right way with speed & control; fun to watch also.

[Slaux]

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Everyone chill. Different opinions and tastes make the world go round. Bottom line, each and every day is different. Sometimes it's the fastest dog that wins, sometimes the slowest, and sometimes somewhere in between. An honest, knowledgeable Judge knows the rule book and applies OBJECTIVITY when evaluating a pack. They put their opinions, likes, dislikes or bias in their hip pocket for a few hours and Judge on accomplishment over style.......Period. Remember - hounds people and sports people are a dwindling minority - let's all be the glue that keeps us together.....

[WELLS WOODS]

Good post, scenting conditions determine how fast a pack can pursue their game with accuracy. Dogs with good foot have an advantage on high scenting days. Dogs with medium foot are usually good line control hounds because it's easier to stay accurate at a slower pace. Really slow dogs may have more control of the line because it's easier to do at that pace. When scenting is really good, a more hard hitting, athletic hound with good control is hard to beat. Although there are times even on high scent, good dogs have to be able to slow down at certain times as the rabbit crosses dirt, sand or does something clever to create a long check. When scent is below average, it gives hounds that are not as fast & hard hitting time to keep up & be involved in the check area & capitalizing on the faster, out of control hounds that out run their nose. Scoring dogs as a judge, even though he may prefer a fast or slower dog, he can only score how the dogs run on that particular day. It has nothing to do with what style or speed the judge personally prefers. I've put wins & places on many Mid-West FC's from the past; some front runners & some that ran little front, but so valuable in the check area that they deserved to be named the winner. Our slowest Mid-West FC's would more that likely be too fast & rough for the UBGF circuit. This organization in my opinion is putting style over accomplishment because regardless if scenting is good or bad, they want them to run a certain, medium speed even if scenting is good enough for them to step it up. This type of hound is not what the AKC rulebook has described as a versatile hunting dog in my opinion. The Mid-West FC's are similar in my opinion because even though some can control the line faster than others, each hound is pursing their game as fast as possible without sacrificing control. Ones with mediocre foot, can win by saving the rabbit & being the most important dog on the ground when scenting is so bad that running is very poor. The great FC's could dominate the front on high scent or slot up sometimes instead of skirting to get the front. They were also great check dogs, working close first in a pattern that covers every route the rabbit could have taken & never giving up on a check. The superior dogs I've seen could adjust to conditions on the fly. They could go from running wide open to putting on the brakes & walking the track on tough scenting terrain. The most successful Mid-West beaglers had these types of dogs. No hound is fast enough to win without being a good check hound also. Checkwork is the most important part of running a rabbit. Combine good check dogs with enough foot to keep up toward the front on the drives & you might have what it takes to finish. A few dogs I remember judging or seeing that could do it all, from handling the front well, quick at finding the easy checks first & the brains, nose & desire to never give up on a lose no matter how long it takes. Here are a few I remember that had this versatility: IFC Stoneyhill's Tamarack, FC Pound The Ground Chance, FC Turbo Powered By Prop, FCGD Mountain Ash Dino, FC Abshires Levee Rd Junie, FC Shaw's Trailblazer Skunk, FC Wells' Silver Spring, FC GMC's Primetime Peeka- Boo, FC Klacking Creek Smoke, FC Dillingars Babe, FC Sunset Scooter, FC Alisha's Rabbit Running Mollie, FC Durham's Lily, FC Cedar Beck Winnski, NR FC BJ's Fudd, FC Andersons T Shawow, FC Blackie's T Rex, FC Badger's Brush Bandit, FC Patterson's Bullseye, FC Pea Ridge Jed- I, FC Hubert's Tori, FC Jump n Run Xena, FC Blazing Trals Blue Diamonds, FC White Oak Creek B& J's Blitz, FCGD Talkabout Gertrude, FC Talkabout Kellie, FC Talkabout Calie, FC Main Events Showtime, FCGD White Oak Creeks Jada's Bella, FCGD TR's Queenie's Primed & Ready, FC Indian Hills Night Train, FC Brent's Birchlick Chimer, FC Sam's Fusion Is Ben, FC Clear Cut Red Bones, FC FD Ball's Sue, FC Thomas's Sandy III, FCGD Wells Woods Valentine, FCGD Branko's Cool Nellie, FC JR's Top Gun Tyke, FC Branko's Sugar Ray, FC Smokes Creek Syris MaGee, FC Branko's Rising Sun Mollie, FC Ross' Roxsie Girl, FC Blazing Trails Blue Baron, IFC Mark V's Ace In The Hole, FC Windy Ridge Daisy, FC Chimney Hill Dot Dasher, FC Indian Hills Nickie, FC Indian Hills Maggie, FC Branko's Pearl, FC Branko's Cruise Control, FC Ruck Run Hard Hittn' Hanna, FC Silvertone White Feather, IFC Dewuse's Big Creek Judy, FC Rock Run Sonny, FC Jerry's Shana Brooke & believe it or not, FC Brent's Prime Time. Time was the fastest big male I've ever seen, but he could grub it out too.

[sparky]

Bottom line, each and every day is different. Sometimes it's the fastest dog that wins, sometimes the slowest, and sometimes somewhere in between. An honest, knowledgeable Judge knows the rule book and applies OBJECTIVITY when evaluating a pack. They put their opinions, likes, dislikes or bias in their hip pocket for a few hours and Judge on accomplishment over style.......Period.

scenting conditions determine how fast a pack can pursue their game with accuracy. Dogs with good foot have an advantage on high scenting days. Dogs with medium foot are usually good line control hounds because it's easier to stay accurate at a slower pace. Really slow dogs may have more control of the line because it's easier to do at that pace. When scenting is really good, a more hard hitting, athletic hound with good control is hard to beat. When scent is below average, it gives hounds that are not as fast & hard hitting time to keep up & be involved in the check area & capitalizing on the faster, out of control hounds that out run their nose. Scoring dogs as a judge, even though he may prefer a fast or slower dog, he can only score how the dogs run on that particular day. It has nothing to do with what style or speed the judge personally prefers. I've put wins & places on many Mid-West FC's from the past; some front runners & some that ran little front, Our slowest Mid-West FC's would more than likely be too fast & rough for the UBGF circuit. This organization in my opinion is putting style over accomplishment because regardless if scenting is good or bad, they want them to run a certain way

Good post Slaux & Wells Woods..
A good buddy of mine told me "what is written down on a good honest judges score card is his gospel" because he seen it with his own two eyes,no opinion,no guessing,no personal preference of style or speed,just simply writing down what he sees on that day, period.

[fastone]