top ten--in worst conditions--

[S.R.Patch]

Yup, rabbits and hare been playing the same games for a long time and we're still trying to breed a hound that can figure them all out...lol
Good luck to us all...

[warddog]

S R Patch
Thank you very much for sharing that link to "The Beagle in America and England". Very interesting reading and especially enjoyed the contribution of E.C.Hare in his section"Hare Hounds Trials and Judging"
Really makes you think, when you realize the comments being made were in regards to beagles of 100 years or more ago.

I thoroughly enjoyed the link as well. What I noticed from it right from the GET GO was the author made it perfectly clear he was talking about OPINION. Yep, man is still over 100 years later giving their OPINIONS not only on what a dog is doing but in how they judge them as well. Seems my OPINION is the same about beagles and trials as they were of the beagles of 100 years or more ago. Seems this author not only knew it but made it perfectly clear in many situations he described. he also made it clear that running behind the dogs was not the best way to see what has actually transpired and not seeing both the dog(s) and the rabbit one is merely speculating on what occurred. Now if the person sees both the rabbit and the dog(s) then they can judge each dog from that set of circumstances but other than that they render a decision on what they believe to be the case or opinion.

[WELLS WOODS]

mybeagles, I heard that you do a good job judging & usually place the same dogs most other judges like & place in the Mid-West. I have heard that you want the handlers to turn the dogs loose & then keep quiet & not let the handlers work them the direction you want to go & not be able to keep them together; then they get scattered all over the place. That's the only complaint I've heard about your judging style. Back to dogs, I know a hound can trail up an old line & jump the rabbit at times. Other times they trail it to a hole or have to trail for a very long time depending how much area the rabbit covered that night & never find anything. If they are trailing up an old line or can smell a lot of rabbit tracks, why not keep quiet until they jump the rabbit & have it moving. I know sometimes a hound can figure out that the rabbit is definitely close by & has been there recently. It's okay to open a little early if the rabbit is around close by because of fresh scent everywhere. When the rabbit is up I want them to give plenty of mouth; every breath if they are moving the line. Another time for dogs to stay quiet is in the check area while the hounds are looking for the loss. Basically, the only time a dog should bark is when they are moving the line on a jumped rabbit. Good luck Dave & keep doing your best. I think you are a very nice fellow.
Smitty, I agree & see your point. A dog that wins a trial with good scenting conditions may not be the best dog for cold, tough scenting conditions; you never know. Blue Water Beagle Club in Michigan has had some really tough conditions the last time I was there. If you run dogs a lot you will learn that scenting conditions can change several times during a race even on good days as the terrain changes or the barometric pressure changes. You would never be able to run 2 at a time or have a solo contest. Talking about the trial, sounds like you though Scooter should have won. I can't argue that, he looked amazing, but T-Rex really looked great also. I would say Scooter out checked T-Rex about 60 % to 40%, but on the drives T-Rex would lead & could hold on to it; sometimes for 5-10 minutes without a breakdown. That impressed me a lot; Scooter was right on his heals though & they both found some tough checks. I can't remember who I was judging with, but I'll admit I gave the edge to Rex & convinced him to go my way. You're not alone, one of the guys I road up there with griped at me all the way home because he thought Scooter won. The gallery saw a lot of the running, but there was a lot only I saw. The next weekend, I put a win on Scooter at Western Ky. T-Rex wasn't there, but I don't think any dog could have beaten Scooter that day. We had some great running. I remember in the first pack of the day, there was a lot of running & even driving hard with no rabbit jumped yet. The only dog in that pack that didn't cold trail was BJ's Fudd by IFC Haunted Hill Shaker & IFC Stonyhills Tamarack. Another guy owned him at the time & I thought to myself, this dog is either eat up with brains or has a no nose at all. Well, it turned out that he had brains because when we finally jumped a rabbit he owned that pack; out nosed them, out drove them & out checked them. I was impressed. Anyway, back to Scooter, he just out scored everything & really came up with some long checks that we thought they would never figure out. The other dogs looked good too; FC Blazing Trails Blue Baron placed 2nd & Fudd placed 3rd. That was a really good pack running in conditions that were kind of tough & scent wasn't good in some parts of the area we were running at. I saw Fudd on the internet later at a good price so I bought him. He had about 7 or 8 2nd places in the Mid-West. One reason I wanted him was because I judged his mother for a win & she is in my top 5 bitches I've ever seen run; she was by IFC Trakarab Pacesetter & FC Black Point Bessie. I put 2 wins on Fudd that year & he measured over 13" several times in the winners pack. He was 13 1/2" ; some judges will give a little, but some won't. I measured him out one time myself before I bought him when the Johnson boys owned him. He won East Central Iowa one weekend & in a few days after he started looking sick. He looked awful; skinny & poor, but would eat a lot even though he felt bad. It took over a year before he started looking better & gaining weight. I blamed it on the paint used at the trial to number them. It was very hard to get it off, but I may be wrong. I bred him to my Prime Time bitch & got a really great 15" bitch, Valentine. She had it all; she was longer & taller than both parents with a better head & body. She had the most perfect balance of strong desire, nose & brains that I have ever seen in one my own dogs.
Back to the issue, feed what you like & have fun. I've seen so many great hounds while judging, I won't be satisfied with most hounds. Later guys........

[Hubbard84]

Good topic. Saw that stine time Ivy was mentioned...my dad a litter mate male to her that could run in most anything, and could keep the chase going. Hubs duece-he sure is missed.

[mybeagles]

Greg,

I've found that having 5-6 handlers "working the dogs" screaming and hollering, smashing through the brush is pretty disruptive to the pack and interferes with dogs jumping game. I guess I would rather have dogs a little scattered and hunting naturally than having the dogs on the trails while the handlers bust brush. Dogs hunting independently helps me identify dogs with good hunt and dogs that don't. If a dog does jump a rabbit away from the pack the scoring doesn't start until dogs pack up....this happens within seconds with Midwest dogs. I guess it's my way of placing more emphasis on hunt and less control by the savy handlers.

I've been thanked for keeping handlers out of the equation and also criticized for it.....generally handlers with naturally hard hunting dogs like the idea.

[WELLS WOODS]

Yeah, but handling is a big part of hunting too. I don't want handlers jumping rabbits for the dogs either until I've seen how much hunt each hound has, but calling them & letting the dogs know which way you want to work is better than letting them keep traveling aimlessly until they jump a rabbit. It could take a long time before a rabbit is jumped & some dogs will take off & never look back & take several dogs with it. As a handler, I like to know where my hound is while we're in the field. As a judge, after I am sure I know all the dogs' level of hunt, I need a rabbit up any way possible because of time restraints to finish the trial & I like to give each pack plenty of time & still have 3 or 4 hours left for the winners pack.

[mybeagles]

I wouldn't hunt with a dog that needed constant attention to keep it from leaving the country. We have a field Marshall to work the dogs in right direction. This is generally very effective. I keep track of hounds and will engage a handler to retrieve a stray hound. I think it's faulty for a hound to instantly reach 400+ yards without searching the immediate area. Typical of hounds that get dropped off in enclosures and picked up later for conditioning purposes.

I think it's distracting to hard hunting hounds to have handlers scattered around hollering tally-ho trying to persuade lazy dogs to get off the path.

As you know when you enter a hound you relinquish control of your hounds for evaluation....the way I see it some handlers are maintaining complete control and even slipping their dogs a quick line at times. I want handlers to play as little a roll as possible.

[Ron Conroe]

A good rabbit dog won't stray off. A good rabbit dog will check in with its owner. The dogs that don't handle are the ones not being hunted. They don't check in up here you will find them in the road dead.

[WELLS WOODS]

Well, regardless of how they are trained, some may take off at a trial if not taught to work with thier owner. And as you know & said, you won't judge them until all of them are in the pack. You can't waste much time at a trial, so why not have them close enough to each other that it doesn't take long for all of them to get together when a rabbit is jumped. Judges learn a lot of tricks to save time here & there if possible.
Handlers should be ready to assist the marshal or judges at all times. If the judges say we need a rabbit guys, then that means help jump a rabbit. After they see that each hound has enough hunt or not, then help jump a rabbit. The judges aren't going to call a pack until they see enough of actual running on a hot rabbit. Or you could just set on your but & say, let those guys do it, it's not any responsibility of mine. That's just a lazy handler that doesn't care if the trial is a success or not.
In a perfect world, we would have time to let every pack jump their own rabbit, but this is Earth, It could take an hour to jump a rabbit in some places with some packs. The best jump dogs will not be awarded for this at a Mid-West trial & that's a shame, but a hard hunter will be noticed. Some dogs that open first were not the ones that actually jumped it. A different dog could have pushed the rabbit out of his bed right over to the lazy dog that got lucky. I'd have to break the rules & give the jump to the one that pushed it out & not the one that got lucky. Sorry.
Anyway, I've heard no complaints over the hounds winning lately; well, maybe once. Keep it moving, but don't forget the AKC rulebook. It's the gospel.

[mybeagles]

Greg,

What about the majority of trials where the dogs are released and handlers immediately spread out in the brush to jump a rabbit. Handlers constantly calling their dogs back into the brush. Handlers jump the majority of rabbits. Im simply not convinced a judge is evaluating hunt. Many first series packs only get 1 rabbit that was jumped by a handler, tally-ho the dogs to the line and once all the dogs have harked in the scoring begins. The only time I see hunt getting scored is late in the trial with 3-4 dogs left and they can't find a rabbit even with the help of the handlers. Many of the hard hunters have already been eliminated and we are left with the fastest dogs with reasonable control because thats what all the scoring was based on.

I agree with Smitty on this one. Although trials can be fun and a rewarding adventure. Not convinced for 1 second the dogs we promote are the premier hunting dogs. Particularly for "worst conditions".

[WELLS WOODS]

I've seen some judges watch their hunt & others don't. I wish they all would start if they aren't already. Handlers need to stop trying to jump a rabbit as soon as the cast is turned lose. Give the judges time to evaluate their hunt for a few minutes. I don't like putting a pack on the last pack's rabbit either & I also wish they would try to go to a fresh area for each pack. As far as tough conditions, the judges can only judge the best on that particular day. A few FC's today have won on every kind of day you can think of; hot, cold, dry, wet, snow, ice, rain, sunny, etc. There are some very versatile hounds out there. I would like a hound to be able to foot with the best on good days & out nose or out smart the others on tough days. Brains in a hound will tell him how scenting is & how fast he can move the line with accuracy.

[mybeagles]

I would like a hound to be able to foot with the best on good days & out nose or out smart the others on tough days.

Greg,

Can I place my order now for two just like you describe? Make sure they are decent looking as well......

[WELLS WOODS]

These kind are rare that are the best in the field no matter what scenting conditions are like. I'll settle for some that can just get the job done well whether scent is tough or ideal. Changing speeds according to scenting conditions is another reason dogs need brains. I don't want a fast dog outrunning his nose when scenting is tough, but I don't want one that runs slow to medium speed when scenting conditions are very good either. I love a dog that can push a rabbit hard & hold on to the line like glue on good days, but I get just as much enjoyment watching them slow down to even a walk if that's what it takes to stay under control of the line. What really gets me excited are the dogs that work a check close, the way they should & only spread if they have to; then if he has all this and he's the type of a dog that will stick to a tough check until he figures it out & doesn't come in or bark around without producing it along with having strong, no quit hunt, I might be so proud that I may show up to a Mid-West trial with high hopes until I realize about 75% of the guys there now days have something as good or better than mine. Better look somewhere else for two like this because if I'm lucky enough to get one, I'm going to hang on to it tight. Looks like you should see something you like out there judging. Judging trials & then finding out the bloodlines of the ones that really impressed me is how I made my decisions of what breeding I would try to keep & breed. I liked the way a lot of the Pacesetter & Heli-Prop dogs performed. They could adjust to conditions well & worked a close check; they could also control the line & make quick turns at a fast speed when conditions were good. I didn't see much foolish barking from them either; seemed to be very level headed & had enough nose that you didn't have to stay home on bad scenting days. As you can tell, I'm like everyone else; I want a clean mouth with plenty of nose. The last few trials I saw, the first series packs had way too much barking through the check & what seemed like ghost trailing. This is when as a judge, you try to key in on the dogs keeping their mouth shut during all of this b.s. It takes brains also to not join in with this chaos. I'm sure the packs got better as the trial progressed. Most winners packs are very impressive. There were some really good 15" females running around 2009 to 2011. I got to see about 15 of those classes that year. I can think of about 7 or 8 that finished in that class during that time. Anyway, I'll take your order, but it may take a few years for me to fill it.

[SMITTY1233]

Good topic. Saw that stine time Ivy was mentioned...my dad a litter mate male to her that could run in most anything, and could keep the chase going. Hubs duece-he sure is missed.

Never owned the dog but had hundreds of hours gunning over her and took her to several trials. The best rabbit dog I've ever seen. I judged every beagle I owned after to her and I had some that made me smile a lot. She had a nose like no other but brains to not babble around before the jump or in a tough check like an idiot. I was running her one day in an ARHA trial. They had ran a rabbit pretty steady for 20-30 minutes. Judges ordered her up and they never ran a rabbit solid for a minute again. She was getting every check and keeping the race alive but she probably was 4 or 5 in the pack. Legitimately she was under 12". I remember getting lost in the swamp in the U.P. hare hunting with her before the garmins were out. She has ran long and hard 10+ hours that day and it was pitch black. She was pretty much done in as were we. Her owner picked her up and put her in the game pouch of his vest with only her head sticking out. She rode the whole way out like that. Tells you how big she really was. Heart of a LION though!

[ohlinger]

There were several Ranger Dan offspring that had exceptional ability in bad weather..... Green Bay Shooter and Stine time Ivy were two exceptional snow hounds. Green Bay Shooter produced some dandies ....

Hard tack Sparky is in that unique group....

I agree with previous comments.....supreme bad weather hounds are not the front runners except for bad conditions.

I saw a female once that was purchased directly from Green Bay kennel that on good days would NEVER shut her mouth..when the dogs got a "good rabbit" up in good conditions she was and is the FASTEST and MOST accurate combo I've ever to this day seen run a rabbit she'd run the track almost exactly like the rabbit laid it almost as fast as she could run..but you couldn't stand her after about an hour with few rabbits and never shutting up...in bad conditions (for central ohio on cottontail cold and icey crappy days I really don't even hunt anymore b/c rabbits aren't out much and don't usualy stay up) she was a dog that could show you rabbits.. She was one of those dogs that just made you scratch your head she ended up being sold as a gun dog to a guy who loved her. She's left some very strong impressions in my head both Amazing and extremely frustrating lol I never did figure out if it was nose power or a lack of brains or an odd combination of BOTH.....not knocking Green bay kennel this female was impressive in her own right just explaining one particular hound I saw. The quoted comment just reminded me of her...I'd love to have seen her on hare in those worst conditions type situations I could only bet she would have really shined..but for central ohio on most days she would be a bit much with all her barking and not much in the way of seen rabbits with out other dogs even honoring what she was opening on...I guess maybe you have to consider you're demographic area and the conditions you run in the most to decide what suits you perhaps as well...