Who is breeding for the total dog. Form and function

[Roy Pasmore]

Mitch you or making more sence then any one I have spoke to about this.
My type of dog will not win many bench shows in UKC but both my male and female has 1st places on bench in ARHA/NKC .Just A defference in views. This will allways be as long as we have more then one format.
Roy

[Tim H]

whiteriver, I understood your post and didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with you. I was just concerned that some people would read what you posted and think that as long as the dog has stamina and can last all day then the rest doesn't matter.

I would like to see ALL registries move to a format that rewards both conformation and performance EQUALLY. Conformation helps ensure the breed for generations to come, perfomance shows what past generations have built.

[blunder]

Mitch
Don't worry about my toes with this subject, because in principle I agree.
Believe it or not I really do come from a field trial background and just happen to have Beagle show dogs (blame my kids).
There is however equal blame on both sides of the fence, with neither side more right (or wrong) than the other. I do know that this problem is nothing new, its been around for at least as long as I have been alive. IMHO the answer lies in looking at the few breeds that don't seem to have this problem. They must be doing something that we are not.
For starters, shouldn't there be a field trial at the National Specialty.

tom

[whiteriver]

tim i see what u meant , and no i was not taking that way lol

i just hope one of these days we will see MORE hounds that can flat out fly on a rabbit ,hunt hard , and not hard to look at lol

we have some dogs out there like that tosay in my eyes but like we said that is my veiw lol

thanks
mitch gould

[sundownbeagles]

Mitch you bring up some good points. I think we all breed to what we consider the standards to be, and not everyone can agree on the standards. Its what makes the world go round.LOL!!! I know our thoughts are we want to show up and win the hunt & show with the same dog consistantly, and do this with more than one dog. Are we there yet of course not but are we closer than we were 5 years ago I think so. We use the slogan "Breeding with the Total Dog in mind" because we are constantly striving to excell in both.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

THIS IS ONE OF MY CONCERNS AS A SMALL BREEDER,( JOHNNY NEW ),IS THE FIRST NAME THAT COMES TO MIND HE IS VERY MUCH INTO CONFORMATION AND A HUNTING DOG, I LISTENED TO HIM A LOT, I TRY TO BREED AN ALL AROUND BEAGLE BUT SOME HOW I CAN ALWAYS FIND SOME FLAWS .BUT I HAVE TO HAVE THE DESIRE FIRST SOME CALL IT HUNT SOME GRIT . I WILL TRY TO KEEP IMPROVING AS TIME GOES ON I LOOK AT AS MANY BLOOD LINES THAT IS POSSABLE .AND TRY TO USE AS GOOD AS I CAN FIND .WELL THIS COULD GO ON FOR EVER I REALLY LIKE THIS POST KEEP IT GOING I LIKE THE DIFFERENT IDEAS.
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Incahoots]

Interesting read. I have to admit the total dog theory has always been a bit fuzy to me. I know what it's suppose to be but it's not a cookie cutter recipe. Take for example CKC LP dogs. Most are thick built dogs with alot being a bit longer then the show dog you'd see on the benches. They were bred to do what they do and many set to bar for endurance. A dogs built and traits can change with local and format. I don't dismiss conformation as not being important but question if a one fits all standard is smart.

It's kinda like the models setting the trend on what is pretty... Then turn around and we wonder why kids/adults have eating disorders. I see alot of pretty beagles at westminster and other televised shows that would have problems running in most any format. They set the bar though for what a show beagle needs to achieve. Some things can never be black and white due to the varibles.

[Hatfield]

I read the history of the beagle breed in a small book. I'm not sure if everyone would agree on this, but it talked about Rakes and kennets( not certain of spelling). I guess the rakes were smaller and used for flushing the rabbit and the kennets were there to run the rabbit after it was up.

I see similar packs today

[mike crabtree]

Hatfield, you havent even seen my dogs. How did you know?

[Beagle Huntsman]

In answer to the original question, relatively speaking, VERY FEW people are breeding for the "total" or complete hound. Personally, I don't believe you can make much headway toward improving conformation in today's beagle without adding show blood to your breeding program, and few are willing to do that. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have to breed to a show dog to improve conformation, but I believe you must have SOME show blood fairly close up in the pedigree somewhere. Sometimes we see really nicely built all field-bred beagles, but they generally do not reproduce the same.

As far as the Beagle Standard, I believe it is excellently written and has stood the test of time for over 100 years. Do not make the mistake of thinking that just beacuse a beagle is a show beagle it must be bred to the Standard, because often that is not true. The show people are humans too, and not necessarily any better at hound breeding than the field people. Do all field crosses turn out well? No. Neither do all show crosses. Some show breeders do a better job than others.

As far as heart vs. conformation, heart can win trials for you, and heart can make a dog run all day, but conformation is what you need to run day after day, year after year. If you can get conformation AND heart, you are getting really close to the "total" beagle.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

I dont buy into the whole conformation thing.I dont believe that a show type beagle could physically hang in there with a hare bred hound day after day of hard running.just my oppinion and i have been wrong alot before.Just seems to me a hare hound type dog looks like its more made for running.How many people when they see a show type looking hound imidiatly thinks boy i bet that sucker can fly.I sure dont,dont get me wrong i have seen alot that could but its the exception not the rule.I like a good looking dog as much as the next guy,but as far as needing it to be able to have endurance,i dont buy in to that for a second.Im not saying this to make anyone mad,i think its great that some people are trying to bring the two together,but there is some reason the seperation was made years ago.

[Shane Smith]

I totally agree that a dog with a lot of heart means more then anything. I have raised and trained coonhounds and the very best dog I owned had feet that looked like paddles, His legs wernt perfect and he was almost all white. He could hunt night after night and would NEVER slow down. He also had a lot of heart. And besides that I am flat footed, had ankle surgery, back problems, and I am the one that always has to slow down. IF THEY HAVE A LOT OF HEART< THEY WILL HAVE A LOT OF HUNT. Just my opinion.
Shane

[Beagle Huntsman]

The split between field and show came gradually in the 1930s. Breeders began to hold trials in the springtime, which had always been the time of shows. With trials in spring and fall, there was less interest in shows. Also, the competition in both show and trial beagles improved enough that breeders had to specialize in one or the other to be able to win. Still today, there are far, far more field trial beaglers than show beaglers.

Hounds with good conformation will outlast hounds without it, all other things being equal. Note I did not say "show beagles", because often they do not have correct conformation these days. Some show lines have excellent conformation, and others do not. There is good and not so good just like in field beagles. I have had some show-bred beagles that could have outlasted any of my more field-bred hounds, including those with hare lines, IF the show hound had the same amount of desire and grit, which usually they do not have.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

I dont believe that but theres no doubt that it would be nice to have both.not meaning your dogs just dogs in general.give me a narrow headed,long tailed ,long legged,chicken breasted hair hound and a square headed,blocky body,good conformation beagle both in the same shape and i think the wirey looking dog could outlast it.I cant figure why they wouldnt try to breed them for better conformation years ago if it would have made them last longer in the field.Instead they went the other way with them,so there has to be something to it I would think..Pesonally I think good conformation is what it is,fun to look at and fun to put on the bench and if you get one you can hunt,bench,and be proud to look at then your just increasing the amount of fun you can have with your dog.

[Incahoots]

I don't see how conformation makes a dog outlast one with more faults. Stamina isn't a result of conformation it's a trait. The female below is direct out of Ali Baba and out of a Heli Prop female. She will run most dogs into the ground be it in cold or heat. She is without a doubt the most bottomless dog I've ever seen. The male I have out of her on bottom pic on right has better conformation then her but that doesn't make him run like her it's the trait. You will never see either laying down even when we run in the summer. You might find a dog that may hang in there with her but conformation even with grit and desire wont come close to outlasting her stamina.