inbreeding ???

[steve]

Mybeagles how would your friends cross be inbreeding when he made an outcross first then so called inbreed back to a son that's only a close linebred to me cause the son is only half his mother then he outcross on those offspring wow. That's like baking a cake and every time you change the ingredients you will get something different every time sure you may get something that tastes good adding this or that but most times you will get something thats needs to be put in the trash.Kepp the ingredients to as few as possible and the cake turns out more times then not.But add just a pinch to much of something ( say salt) add 1/2 tbsp instead of a 1/4 tbsp and what do you thing happens.

Now for Ron Conroe or should I say cornh??? why did you even bother posting here what value did you contribute to this post like I said IDIOT.

Just like all the guys complaining about the trial dogs not having enough nose or what have you, these same guys ( want a bees) are the same ones doing the most DAMAGE to the beagle breed by breeding to outcross dogs all the time or promoting junk field champ dogs that don't deserve the title,BREED to so and so get as many fs in the pedigree as possible sell sell sell pup after pup when in fact how many of those pups are duds.
Now I know some guys will take offence to the last paragraph and I am sorry I didn't mean all the guys complaining about lack off nose power are contributing to the problem reread the par. and you'll know what I mean.
So now back to the guys that are experimenting with the inbreeding why is it you non believers thick that the few who step out side the box are hurting the breed anymore then you outcross breeders,your just plain nuts the worst any of us can do from what has been done already is help things out sure where not gonna get alot of pups that turn out right off the bat from one inbreeding but the ones that do turn out if used correctly can make an inpack on there own kennel.
Now for all you guys that believe in the inbreeding process someone should start a new post and we could get a list of names and ideas to share with each other with out the IDIOTS posting there.
And last MYBEAGLES I let you slide many times but you know what although your being civil on this post you really need to go read WILDERNESS PATCHWORK by Willet Randall and some other books about breeding you claim you have schooling so use it to read some good books or didn't you go to school to read.Point is you don't contribute much other then your friend had poor results from his inbreeding experience for all you know he's happy with the results I hammered you about your judging and such but facts are your one of the guys that fall into the ( want a bee )
your changing the breed by your cracked methods of what a beagle should be or how it should be bred and judged.ENOUGH said.

[Ron Conroe]

yep you must be inbred, because conroe dont sound like cornh??? to me,it sounds like you take it in there alot. your the expert on inbreeding, you sound like a computer educated IDIOT.so you better run back to your mom & sister and get your facts straight MR INBREEDER.

[coyote hunter]

Ron Conroe, No hostility on part. What about you?

mybeagles I agree this shouldn't be an argument but a discussion. When people post on here and want to know others opinions on inbreeding I think what their looking for is results from people with experience not weather or not they think it is morally right or not. This is why I read the posts on the subject, If one of my females turns out to be well above average and I decide to breed her I want to know what my best chance of success would be, inbreed, linebreed or a total outcross. This subject has come up on here several times and it only gets heated when people against inbreeding don't have anything to add to the post except to say it's just wrong or would you want to breed to your daughter? Well, no I wouldn't nor would I want to breed to any female that has flees, rolls in dead stuff and licks it's own butt. but that has nothing to do with breeding dogs.

Mybeagles what quality would you consider your friends dogs and what about the results from his line breedings and out crosses would you own any of those? The point to my previous post was that you can't have an educated opinion based on one litter of pups. I have seen a few inbreedings that produced some good hounds but I haven't seen enough to know weather your odds are better or not and like hearing from others that have tried it and what kind of results the got. I have seen a lot of out crosses to good stud dogs that produced what I would call crap.

Dave

P.S. Ron I don't even know Steve so I pretty sure we're not related. Now do you have anything intelligent to say?

Not related one of you guys could be the puppy that was sold out of that inbreed liter that should have been culled but was given to that kid down the road and got breed.

[cabin fever]

Coyote hunter wrote "I think it is alot of stress on her female having a liter knowing that you may have to cull them all." lol. coyote hunter just don't tell her she won't get stressed.

I was going to ask you the same thing I ask Ron "Do you have anything intelligent to say?" but it's obvious you don't.

Dave

[JAW]

The topic of inbreeding has always gotten these kind of replies by beaglers.We can not put our hounds no the same scale that we are on.We are by design more intelligent than the animal kingdom and were governed by our thinking process not by instinct.All animals in the wild will inbreed and nothing can stop this process except mother nature.Take a look at the rabbits we run their inbreed and inbreed some more and it takes nothing away from their ability to loose my hounds or yours,in fact they keep getting better and their not outcrossed.Get fewer hounds in a pedigree and you'll get consistency to those few hounds type.Every beagler should do their own experiment(s) on breeding and keep the whole litter to see what they have produced in order to know if it's a good thing to do again or not.We really can not judge Mr.Xs hounds by our hounds because all hounds have a different genetic make-up so what works for Mr.X may not work for anyone else and vice verse.I still think it was good for Ricky to inbreed his hounds because he'd never know unless he tried once.John

[coyote hunter]

Coyote hunter wrote "I think it is alot of stress on her female having a liter knowing that you may have to cull them all." lol. coyote hunter just don't tell her she won't get stressed.

I was going to ask you the same thing I ask Ron "Do you have anything intelligent to say?" but it's obvious you don't.

Dave

Well Dave looks like I am wrong and you are the smartest breeder on earth what was I thinking??.Why do you get so upset when one views are different that your own,its not real hard to see intelligents here and it not you Dave. I know you know it all thats why you got the best I know .I think Dave you must of been involved in inbreeding years back and I think there is a very bad trait coming in.Lots of mouth and no brains.I will ask you how many #1 hunting dogs have you breed and own,and how many FT you own??Let start with that to see how we can help that mouthy trait problem you have.Maybe you can list the breeding??just another intelligent Dan

[cabin fever]

Coyote hunter What makes you think I am upset? I'm not the one posting childish remarks towards you. Where in my post did I ever say anything about being the smartest breeder on earth? Or anything about having the best. or having #1 hunting dogs or having any FC. Do you have a problem comprehending what you read? I never once attacked you. I did ask how many father X Daughter crosses you have seen to make the statement" I think a person should ask themselves what the # of good compared to bad people have got from inbreeding????more crap than good for sure." And I did say "if your opinion is based on one or two litters or the fact that it is immoral for humans to inbreed then you probably are an idiot. I stand by that statement and coyote hunter if the shoe fits....... Now coyote hunter calm down try to comprehend what it is you are reading and try to refrain from making anymore idiotic statements.

Dave



There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[mybeagles]

Steve, I think your a bit harsh but if that makes you feel better Im OK with it....What I am continually looking for are the present day success stories of a superior line of dogs.....
Who out there can honestly boast a high quality, successful breeding program based on inbreeding and close line breeding. All the visible top kennels in the country dont seem to be using close inbreeding as a tool. Most of them seem to linebreed and outcross. I have viewed numerous pedigree's on Branko, Maravic, Birch Lake dog and dont see inbreeding as the key....Please feel free to list some successful inbreeding programs that I can research a little.....
Steve and Cabin Fever you criticize Ron, myself and many others for not producing anything, lets see a list of all the great hounds you gentlemen have produced through the years with your breeding programs. You both offer lots of breeding advice and tips so feel free to give us your success story. Steve you keep criticizing my judging. Did I order up one of your hounds a while back or something. You say dont make opinions based on things you hav'nt seen. Have you ever watched me judge??? Hope everyone is enjoying the spring running, mybeagles.....

[Ron Conroe]

well steve your the one that got on here and started calling every one idiots, and then your buddy cabin fever agrees with you, until you guys, or better known as wack & jack the meoff brothers can show us some thing that you have done, then maybe you should stick to breeding each other.

[cabin fever]

Mybeagles I never criticized Ron, coyote hunter, or you, especially you. Ron and coyote hunter started the childish attacks. I was interested in this post to hear about others success or lack of with inbreeding not for a lesson in morals. I really don't care what your, Ron or coyote hunters opinions on the subject are. Obviously the three of you have a closed mind on the subject. There are a few guys on here that I would value their opinions based on their post in the past and the obvious experience and success they have had with beagles. I assure you none of the three of you are one of them. like I said in my last post I never claimed to be a successful breeder in fact if I ever decide to breed one of my females I will probably put a post on here listing her pedigree and what she lacks and what I'm looking for and ask opinions from the more experienced open minded guys on here. You said "Please feel free to list some successful inbreeding programs that I can research a little..... What do you consider inbreeding and what do you consider line breeding? One off the top of my head would be Branko's Double Ann If I am not mistaken I believe she was the result of a father daughter cross ( ConmanXPretty Pebbles) she was the dam of Int. Fc Branko's Ali Baba who was the sire of many Fc. Int. Fc and Can. Fc. She was also the dam of Branko's Silvertone Belle which was the dam of Fc Maravic's Blue Jean and Fc. Maravic's Blue Barry. if anyone thinks that it is immoral to breed father Daughter surely you must feel the same about half brother half sister cross. We could go on all day and fill pages with successful breedings using that cross. The first one that comes to mind World champion Talk About Blue Jasper. These are off the top of my head, some dogs in the pedigrees of some of my young dogs. I have studied a lot of pedigrees of Branko dogs and although there may not be a lot of father daughter crosses his line is full of very tight linebred dogs. Like him and his dogs or not you can't deny the impact he has had on beagles. I never meant for any of my post to come across as me being an expert. The point of my post was that we should not put the same morals on dogs that we do the human race to do so is idiotic and I stand by that statement. As for Ron and Coyote hunter all i have to say is grow up this isn't grade school.

Dave

[steve]

MYBEAGLES

New guide to breeding old fashioned working dogs by Guy Orminston
The beagle in america and england
The hunting beagle handbook by Jerry O'Connor
The beagle by Thelma Gray
This is the beagle by George D. Whitney D.V.M.
Practical dog breeding and genetics by Eleanor Frankling
The complete beagle by Wm Denlinger
Breeding better beagles by Rev. John Parks
How to breed dogs by Leon F. Whitney D.V.M.
Wilderness Patchwork by Willet Randall
Bracken, and Onslot I believe also wrote books about breeding or don't be lazy type in Google search on breeding.
What have I produced of any signifigance nothing as far as anybody is concerned as i don't care about anybody but myself and my dogs get the job done here.And why would I try to produce anything that's field trial worthy when I don't field trial and besides who hunts rabbits in the spring and summer I sure don't as I let them have the time to replenish themselves having little ones what proof do you get by running dogs in Ideal conditions you want good dogs then trial them during the hunting season when it's tougher running not the summer when they get to gobble up a bunch of baby rabbits.
And no Mybeagles you have not judged my dogs as i don't field trial and never will I just Question your integrity on here as per your always changing your story from post to post ( 20yrs with running dogs to 25 yrs the next post ) to I had schooling making it sound you had some genetics background when called out you have biology classes instead, to being a judge of many yrs I think you get my drift I let you slide alot on your so called expertice but sometimes enough is enough.
As for the other guys Coyote and Ron I'm sure you have friends who know your call names on these boards and at trials you may attend you really prove by your posts how INGNORANT SOME PEOPLE really are.
I like others on here try to learn something every day and there always seem to be the same few who try to stir the pot and make it hard for others on here to LEARN if you get the books I posted to read maybe some off us can post and learn from others while the the few BRAIN DEAD ones are busy read and trying to learn and if there is a responce back to this that tells me along with others your learning is done and there's no help for you.

[mybeagles]

This brings out an interesting point. What is the goal of your breeding programs.....? Lets assume(maybe I shouldnt) that we want to create a couple GREAT dogs!

I think the average back yard breeder/occational trialer wants to breed to keep 1-2 pups (hoping one will turn out great), sell the remainders to cut cost of feed, trialing etc.....

If inbreeding is going to be used as a means of creating your great dogs, does this need to a long term project? Would you have to keep entire litters of pups and then breed them again to find out if you created a producer? Would you have to breed at least two generations of dogs in hopes of creating that GREAT dog?

The other option would be to outcross or perhaps line breed with the best dogs available...You would have a couple chances as the above method is at least a two generation project.

What method creates the best chance to create 1-2 great dogs??? How many are willing to create litters of pups in hopes of creating a producer?? I wont say that inbreeding is imoral but I do think its a little unrealistic for the one litter a year breeder....

Steve, sorry you feel that way. Still not sure where your coming from with the education thing. I have taken basic genetics and a couple Biology classes, but never claimed to be the SME (subject matter expert). It doesnt take a genius to understand basic genetics. As for my longevity in the sport, Im sorry I didnt pay more attention to detail, I didnt realize you were keeping a diary of my every word....Im flattered

P.S. thanks for the book ref.......maybe someday Ill get to your level and will be able to counsel the young at heart! Steve, without being sarcastic(very tough for me) could you tell us how inbreeding has improved your kennel. What traits have you locked into your hounds? Would beagles of this quality ever be offered for public stud?

[windy hollow]

I am relatively new to breeding hounds but I have bred exotic fish and know the way to improve the colors and appearance you bred the young virgin females to their fathers. and as said here before pedigrees of some great hounds have the same sire many times in the pedigree.
Arguments on both sides of the fence are going to happen but the proof is in the trialing.

[blackdirt beagles]

whether you inbreed or linebreed or outcross... you will never get anywhere with a closed mind or lack of a plan. personally i like to linebreed fairly close and on ocassion i will outcross to a couple other lines that have worked well with mine in the past. ive never used inbreeding yet but sure wish i would have in the past but at that time i was more concerned with "popular opinion" than with what i actually believed would of worked and now those two dogs are long gone. in the future, if the right dogs happened along, id definately consider inbreeding. but that falls under having a plan... which sad to say a high majority of beaglers shouldnt even be allowed to own dogs muchless breed them.

as for the comment about breeding to get a couple great ones (or something to that affect)... i think id rather breed and get solid consistant results generation after generation. that is more proof that your breeding plan is working than getting one or two "great" dogs.

[mybeagles]

Brian, you need the two great ones before you attempt the inbreeding. Seems to me if you could come up with two great ones, producing some consistanly good ones wouldnt be so difficult. What comes first the chicken or the egg....Outcross to get great one so you can inbreed to get consistcy that you outcross to get great on e, whew, Im going crazy