Kidney Failure

[thh058]

is there anything you can do for kidney failure if you catch it early enough?

[SilverZuk]

Amanda,
I didn't realize the dog that you were talking about was Emma.
She was a nice hound.

The details of your story bring back a lot of emotion with my experience with my Jackson Hound.
I wrote and article about him that was printed in American Beagler (late 2005).
It was a hard loss for us.

[jogletree]

We lost a male last summer to kidney failure. He was about 6 and 1/2 years old when he passed. At about 5 years old we noticed his stamina slipping quite a bit. Some one told us to try Red Cell. We would give him a dose after everytime in the field. He made it another year and half. He was on Pro Plan adult up untill about the last three months. We put him on Science diet for kidney problems. He usually drank a lot of water, but never paid much attention since he was the best male hound we had. We finally put him down rather than letting him suffer.

[NCPatch]

Leptospirosis causes kidney failure in dogs there are about 17 different species and the vaccines that are on the market don't take care of all of them. Vaccinated dogs are still susceptible to infections from subtypes. Vaccinate yearly Lepto can be picked up from the urine of other animals who carry it cattle horses goats rats etc. The bacteria can live in swamps and streams where infected animals urinate. It can also affect humans. The immune system will clear it from most organs but the kidneys will hold it for up to a year without showing signs and pass leptospires throw the urine symptoms include fever depression lethargy loss of appetite joint and muscle pain eye and nasal discharge vomiting excessive intake of water and excessive urination are primary sign. Ivomec now here is another cause of kidney failure in dogs . But it is not the drugs falt it is how it is over used. I use it myself but onlyat 1/10 cc per 10 lb body weight. Here is the problem with Ivomec a dog givin Ivomec should not be run for two weeks after given a dose until the drug has had time to do its job and the results are flushed through the kidney if the animal is ran and gets to hot the kidney can be damaged by the Ivomec as it will remain in the kidney and harden. There are lots of reasons for kidney failure high proteins is another that is possible. But by the symptoms most are describing sounds like Lepto.

[SilverZuk]

symptoms include fever depression lethargy loss of appetite joint and muscle pain eye and nasal discharge vomiting excessive intake of water and excessive urination are primary sign.

I looked into that also.
I ruled it out because the only symptom my dog had was excessive water intake. In the last month he got poor.
Another thing is tape worm infestations. If a dog is infested, tape worm larvae can damage kidneys, eyes (causing blindness), brain, etc. I ruled that one out also.

Beagles are a breed where congenital kidney defects are not uncommon.
My wife and I worried about the other dogs, and had their kidney function checked through a blood test.
They were all normal, and they all live in the same environment that the one that died.

[Larry G]

NCPatch wrote:

Ivomec now here is another cause of kidney failure in dogs . But it is not the drugs falt it is how it is over used. I use it myself but onlyat 1/10 cc per 10 lb body weight. Here is the problem with Ivomec a dog givin Ivomec should not be run for two weeks after given a dose until the drug has had time to do its job and the results are flushed through the kidney if the animal is ran and gets to hot the kidney can be damaged by the Ivomec as it will remain in the kidney and harden. There are lots of reasons for kidney failure high proteins is another that is possible. But by the symptoms most are describing sounds like Lepto.



Where did you get that information? Not about the lepto but the Ivo and high protein? I also hear a lot that high protein causes skin problems in dogs. A LOT of people believe hi pro diets will cause kidney failure in dogs. A lot will argue that it doesn't.

Now, in humans even the proponents of low carb, hi fat and protein diets such as Atkins, South Beach, etc. will tell you that people with kidney problems should not go on them. But they say the hi pro will not cause kidney disease in healthy people. It's funny that all you can eat is either fat, proteins or carbs, and we have been told that all are bad for us... the fat, especially sat fat and trans fat, will plug your arteries, the protein will wreck your kidneys, and the carbs, especially the simple carbs, will make you fat. Bon appetit!

[Beagled1]

I think alot of this is genetic, but I am curoious if it isnt a little more than that.

Haven't had one with kidney problems, but I think you're dead on. I'm usually one to look at genetics first, but honestly, don't think genetics is the major factor here.

This is just food for thought - usually what causes kidney problems in the first place is either contaminants in the diet, infections from bad teeth that spread to the kidneys/other organs, and poor quality proteins combined with too much dietary phosphorous over prolonged periods of time. Another thing that can do it is if the urine becomes alkaline for too long. This will cause a buildup of bacteria in teh urinary tract, which, if left untreated (and UTIs are sometimes VERY difficult to diagnose until it's too late) the infection spreads up to the bladder - then ultimately the kidneys

I'm sure there's got to be some genetic predisposition here, if not in all then most of the cases. But then genetics alone does not make sense at all because it's just SO widespread. And then, you have beaglers who surely have the same bloodlines as others who've lost dogs young, and no kidney disease at all

I think you've hit the nail directly in the center of the head with the diet questions. I honestly believe the food is the MAJOR factor here, because all the elements that contribute to kidney disease come into play with diet. Of course, take into account those genetic predispositions, which is why not all the dogs eating a certain food will drop dead of kidney disease. Take into account that diets containing good amounts of chemical preservatives such as BHA or BHT are more likely to cause kidney problems, because the kidney's job is to filter these (known carcinogen!) chemicals out of the body. Feed it day after day, and the kidney's just break down. BY THE TIME WE NOTICE SYMPTOMS OF RENAL FAILURE, CLOSE TO 70%+ OF THE KIDNEYS ARE DAMAGED. Permanently. So these are problems that are festering over time, and we just don't know it ... Then you have cheap foods that are high in meat and bone meal and not enough digestable calcium/too much phosphorous in relation to that calcium. Or cheap foods that use poor quality proteins. Or ones that use too much grain - because grain is the culprit in alkalizing the urine, while meat based diets acidify it. (acidic urine will kill the bacteria in the urinary tract before it becomes a problem) Grain based foods that are carbo loaded also cause a buildup of tartar on the teeth, which will also contribute to kidney problems if peridontal disease sets in ...

So that's JMHO on the subject. WTG for looking at diet as the suspect - huge step in the right direction

[Larry G]

Good discussion. People go on hi protein and fat, low carb diets to try to lose some weight. The thinking is that carbs, especially simple carbs like sugars will cause an insulin spike which drops the blood sugar too low then you eat more carbs and they are converted to fat. The advisors say to eat protein at every meal. What happens to the protein your body cannot use? It must be processed by the kidneys and converted to uric acid. The fat (triglycerides) stored in your body is supposedly converted to ketones (on this diet) and excreted in the urine. So why do they caution people with kidney disease not to use the diet, or use a modified version of it? Because the kidneys may not be able to handle all that protein, leading to renal acidosis.

Hi protein sells dog food because people believe it will enable the dogs to perform better and make them look better. Whether it causes kidney problems in dogs, well that has been argued yes and no. You can find good arguments for either side. Here is a link to one study that indicates there is no connection:
http://www.wysong.net/hpkidney.shtml
Note that they also dispute your high phosphorous point. Note that they are also trying to sell something, which is kind of hard to get away from and makes us all a little cynical.

People on this board have advised that inbreeding and culling can eliminate genetic predisposition to not only kidney failure, but just about everything else you can think of. Wouldn't that be wonderful. What really happens is, inbreeding and lack of culling. People either don't know, or don't want to admit that something is wrong with their dogs. Even if they do cull hard for years and years, eventually they must outcross. Then, they are in the same boat as Arthur Ashe who died from aids he got from a blood transfusion. He had to have blood, and they thought the blood was OK. Unless the breeder is certain the outcross contains no genetic defects, and that is hard to do, they are back to square one.


Carmen Battaglia, PhD. states that beagles have 31 genetic defects

http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/delimma.pdf

so obviously a few things are slipping through the cracks or he is just crying wolf. Another case of how do we really know.

[SilverZuk]

First of all, I exhausted myself about beagle kidney failure after I lost one in 2005. Losing that one struck me hard, and I never want to lose another one. So I got educated, I read everything I could find about kidney disease and failure in beagles, dogs, horses, people, and others. So I encourage people to use google and learn all they can.
Unfortunately I didn't document all that I read, or come to some grand conclusion that pointed to a single factor.
I wasn't getting paid to study it, I just wanted some peace of mind.

I believe genetics are the biggest factor.
Just like humans, there are factors that influence longevity but only to small degree.
Take someone that is predisposed to diabetes, heart disease, and other similar factors.
One sibling can really watch what they eat, exercise, and do everything they can to be healthy.
The other sibling lives normally.
You will find only a minor difference in their longevity.
There are many studies to prove this.

Some of the people have posted that certain dogs in their bloodline died at a young age from kidney failure.
The link has already been made. Mother died of kidney failure at 5. Several offspring died at approximately the same age.
Yes, environmental factors play a part but only to a certain extent.
You will see the kidney disease in certain bloodlines. It may not be present in every dog in the line, but more frequent in those lines.

I have known several beagles to be diabetic, and that is when I started wondering if some of the later in life kidney failures are due to diabetes.

I have lumped kidney disease into two categories.
Those that die before, or around their second birthday.
Those that die around ages 5 to 7.
Yes, there are all other ages, but those two groups seem to be the most prominent in my opinion.

I really would expect that those that die young have congenital kidney disease/deformities.
It has been documented that beagles are known to have kidney defects, but most documentation say they die within six months of birth. There is a website that gives statistical data about kidney defects and breed of dog. Beagles were in the top breeds to experience kidney failure.

I would like to see data on those that die between ages 5 to 7 to see if the dogs are diabetic, or what other genetic factors causes them to have weak kidneys.

You can look at people, feed us junk and we will have problems associated with diet.
If it were high protein food, wormers, or other environmental factors we would see a much larger portion of the population effected.

Due to the large population to study, with similar genetics, nearly identical environments (food, wormer, water, amount of running), it would be easy to determine "People that feed this food and this wormer are harming their dogs".
It is not that apparent.
Not as obvious as what fast foods, processed foods, and a sedentary lifestyle has done to Americans.

[warddog]

I too have lost one at 7 years old due to kidney failure. I had started to notice his stamina slowing down for a couple of years prior but when he went down he went down pretty fast. He drank a lot of water and would not even eat his ration of food for about 3 days and about a wek into his down slide he would even come out of his dog house. When he got to that point i snapped the lead on him and took him to the promised land as I couldn't watch him suffer any longer. I'm more interested in the % of protein of the feeds involved rather than the brand of feed. I've been a USDA slaughter inspector for 28 years and I've inspected thousands of cattle carcasses post mortem. I can generally tell the difference between cattle that have had high protein feed poured to them for that quicker weight gain then those that have been range fed so-to-speak. I see many that have kidney and or livers burned up or degenerated on the high protein fed cattle. The most I see this on are the 4-H cattle and hogs that come to slaughter after the the fairs. Nearly ALL these animals have kidney and or liver degeneration due to the strict feeding of the super high protein weight gaining diets. In the numbers I have seen I don't think genetics are the most probable cause but rather the high protein diets fed to them as these animals are from all over the place in the slaughter houses that I have inspected in. I'm sure genetics have some role in this but I believe the diet plays a bigger role.

[les guynn]

lost a male last year,ran him a lot year around summer early morning, he was 7 years old and in good con. feed big red dog food endurance,but all passes a little blood my dogs eat the same food but we where out one morning last summer and he just quite after about 2 hours running and came back to me, when i saw him coming i new something was wrong, because he never had quite before.he would drink lots of water,eat a little but just lost all his strenth and passed away a week later,passed a little blood but no water, but all endurance went real quick. bad news

[SilverZuk]

Wardog, I remember you posting that information before. I don't discount what you have seen.
My question is why a small percentage of dogs are affected instead of breed as a whole?
Why has one guy that has had 100 beagles only had 3 to die from kidney failure?
To me the incidents are too inconsistent for it to be strictly environmental (food, medicine, etc.).
That leads me to believe that it is genetic. There had to be some weakness to begin with.

Are you familiar with livestock feeds?
I speculate they are "hotter" than dog feeds. If you are graining livestock on commercial feed, more than likely that animal will be in the freezer within 3 years. So long term for livestock is 3 years. As long as problems don't develop within that window, the results (increased muscle mass and meat) are good.

It would be interesting to see a study on beagles based on autopsy results.
It would be expensive, and since a dead dog is not worht anything - no one is going to spend their own money having it done.
I had people asked me if I had the vet determine what killed my dog.
I said, "What does it matter? He is dead and I never bred him."

[Big Dog]

My particular case fits right in with what Silver Zuk said. My male died at just shy of 6 years old of Kidney failure. His mother and two of her littermates all died at 6 years old within a 6 month period. These dogs were located in different states. The bitch that was the Dam of these 3 dogs also died of kidney failure. I would say that is genetic or either one helluva coincidence. Knowing this, I did the right thing and never bred this male, so he wouldn't pass it on.

Big Dog

[Larry G]

The rat study showed hi pro caused kidney failure, but a rat, a cow and a pig are not natural meat eaters like a dog. This page:
http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/kf.html
shifts the blame to other causes. I am not going to worry about feeding too much protein to the dogs. I still have not seen any indication, much less any proof, that ivomec damages a dog's kidneys. NC patch, once again where did you get that info? Anybody? The guy I know that is telling everybody that it does is selling Interceptor (milbemycin oxime) which is another heartworm prevention medicine. The American Heartworm Society approves of Ivomec as a preventative. Cattle and other animals are dosed with it every day. So why is it getting blamed for kidney disease?

[SilverZuk]

The American Heartworm Society approves of Ivomec as a preventative. Cattle and other animals are dosed with it every day. So why is it getting blamed for kidney disease?

Ivermectin is the activeingredient in "Heart Guard" brand heartworm prevenative for dogs.