dog with not enough mouth for other hounds to hark

[MasonsBeagles]

not to be devils advocate. but seems to me that the low volume mouth would be a disadvantage most of the time as a dog with a good mouth would get noticed more.

[cutthroat beagler]

Here is why this is more of an advantage than a disadvantage...

Dog #1 has no mouth but will run with the other dogs when they pull a check.

Dogs #2-5 have pleanty of mouth but cannot hear #1 to come to his aid when he pulls a check.

The judge isn't stupid and when he is standing right in the check area watches #1 pull a check and run it right past him.
(Nice check #1 BUT...)

Dogs #2-5 don't hear him go out with it and the judge tells the handlers to get their dogs in with #1 so they do exactly that. But this keeps happening and #1 is getting 2-3 checks for himself every time he sneaks out with the check because he has no competetion at this point.



My logic tells me that...

In ARHA a judge doesn't have to have all of the dogs there to score checks. So every time #1 sneaks out and the other hounds are not there to help him when he breaks down, then #1 can rack up the score when he has no competitors in his very own check area. What do you think is happening when #1 breaks down for 15-20 seconds, finds his own check, and moves another 40-50 yards before the handlers can get their dogs in. This is assuming they can even hear dog #1 to find where they need to get their dogs to...

Dog #1's score looks great, but it is skewed because every other GRAND #2-5 must fight with other packmates to earn their 25 CHECK POINTS AT A TIME (PACKED). All a quiet dog must do is slip out on his packmates 1 time, and HE CAN TURN HIS 25 CHECK POINTS INTO 50, 75, EVEN 100 POINTS (NOT PACKED) especially in open country. I would say dog #1 was an outstanding dog if he/she slipped out of the check area and had absolutly no break downs (since he/she's running by them selves) this would demonstrate phenomenal line control. But if they are slipping the check and then getting a series of 15 second breakdowns before hounds #2-5 can get litteraly tossed back into the mix, then he/she #1 isn't as good as their score would lead you to believe.

These are not just some push over open class dogs we are talking about here either. When every other hound in this GRAND CHAMPION cast pulls a check they have enough mouth to pull the ENTIRE PACK (INCLUDING DOG #1) bringing their competitors with them into the next point of loss. Where all of the dogs must fight for the check equally. but if by chance dog #1 pulls the check he gets to run solo into the next point of loss and has no other dogs there to mud up the track when he/she pulls most of their checks and is allowed to rack up an easy score...

That just doesn't sit right with me!

[sizematters]

IF YOU SET FIVE DOGS DOWN ON A HOT RUNNING RABBIT AND GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO RUN THAT RABBIT, WHY WOULD YOU WORRY ABOUT HEARING THE OTHER DOGS. RUN THE RABBIT.....

[WELLS WOODS]

A dog won't last long in AKC Mid-West with that fault; running tight mouthed or running mute. It is a form of cheating. Most of the time it is caused by too much pack pressure. In this case though it sounds like the dog has a health problem. Nevertheless, the dog would be disqualified if it repeatedly ran so tight mouthed that the other hounds couldn't hear it.

[Buckeye Blues]

Excuse my ignorance here, because my experience with trialing is very limited to date. I have no experience with ahra. And I have no opinion on this topic, but cant only 1 dog score on a check anyway?

I mean even if all 5 dogs have the most beautiful mouth in the world, doesnt only the 1st dog to give mouth and advance the track get the check points?

Just trying to learn.

[S.R.Patch]

We assume hounds hear the same as we do? or better? or worse?
If judge can hear to stay with and score LP hound, he's making some noise. I ran after a few, they get away from you, no mouth, no find, no score.
I just find it hard to believe that as if you say, this hound is so tight mouthed and has such a whisper of a voice, that any judge could hear, get up with, and score any such hound on a rabbit.
Nobody likes to have to go catch their hounds to get them back in a race...I agree, a good calling mouth saves a lot of shoe leather...

How many times in 20 minutes did you have to catch your hounds and return them to the race? Sounds like ya'll decided not to compete for the last 40 minutes of the cast on yer own, essentially withdrawing from the competition? how does this warrant a do-over? what does you scratching your hound from a purposed do-over have to do with anything?.... The judge hunts the hounds, they are in the race or they ain't.

[cutthroat beagler]

Excuse my ignorance here, because my experience with trialing is very limited to date. I have no experience with ahra. And I have no opinion on this topic, but cant only 1 dog score on a check anyway?

I mean even if all 5 dogs have the most beautiful mouth in the world, doesnt only the 1st dog to give mouth and advance the track get the check points?

Just trying to learn.

The problem isn't with the first check that the dog pulls, it's when the dog pulls 2 or 3 consecutively non-contested checks in a row because the other honds aren't even their to compete for them.

E. Checks

1. Definition: A check occurs when it is evident that the hounds in pursuit of the rabbit have lost it for 15 seconds, or more. The hounds do not have to shut up barking for 15 seconds in the check area for it to be considered a check, only lose it to where they cannot make forward progress with the rabbit for 15 seconds. A hound must claim the check by giving mouth and making forward progress.

If the dog gets out from his packmates and advances the line, and then he stalls out for 15 seconds then this constitutes a new check situation.
For example: A very quiet dog with poor line control could potentially advance the line 25 yards, breakdown 15 seconds, advance another 30 yards, stall for another 15-20 seconds, advance another 40 yards stalling for 15 more seconds, etc. Every one of these advancements would be scored accordingly 25+25+25 = 75 check points.

And to say that just because the judge can hear the dog means that the pack should too is ridiculous. The judge has an arial view and has far better problem solving skills than a dog does. (Kind of like a 6'8" QB can see over the line and down the field better than a 5'4" running back can.) The judge can determine what is going on faster than a dog that's never dealt with this situation before can. The judge can see body language, and mouth movement from up top and can predict some things before they even happen at times. Once the judge realizes what he is dealing with, he can position himself to stay closer to the quiet hound in check situations. And the judge has to score it because the rules don't have a way to stop it...

S.R.Patch = If you are chasing a really good line controled hound then I can see them getting away from you because of the lack of mouth. But what about a dog that constantly over runs the line and causes his own checks and is constatnly having to fix their own work. In this situation the dog could rack a score up in a hurry. And I'm guessing he conceeded that their was no rule violation but thought the dog in question was lacking so much mouth that he wanted somebody that could posibly do something about the rules in the future to see what that he wasn't exagerating. He obviously believes in trying to better the breed with quality hounds that do it the right way, instead of promoting cheater dogs that cannot function in a normal pack of hounds...

Once or Twice in an hour I can see this being a fluke. Four or Five times in an hour though... This sounds like a dog I would give away to some young gun hunter that only wanted a single hound (Not a breeder or a trialer).

It is my own opinion that a dog like this doesn't make your pack any better. It can only hurt the dogs behind them. Young dogs that haven't developed enough to run a mudded up track that this dog has already run could learn bad habbits running with this style of dog. They may think it's normal to run cold track all of the time if they never catch up to the dog. They may even learn to bark the dog because they always smell his scent on top of the rabbit's scent because he's already run the line. And they may never strive to run the clean line up front in a pack if exposed to running mudded up previously run track all of the time.
Why not become content running at the back of the pack barking dog and not rabbit???

[Blu Tick Beagler]

Guys I was standing there when the handler spoke to Mike. I believe the main complaint was about the other hound not able to hear/ pack with the hound. The comment was made about pack work..

This is Little Pack: Here's the definition right off of the ARHA website...

Little Pack is the most popular division in ARHA. This type of competition is run in 5-dog casts and tends to favor fast dogs with a tendency to work a wide check area. The dogs are scored on finding and running a rabbit, with individual accomplishment being a more important factor than close pack work.

INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISHMENT v/s pack work.. If this dog can accomplish his goal with very little mouth then he is running in the right format. If you choose to need a hound that will only score in a pack.. Then PP might be your format.

[jleerockit]

COME UP AGAIN ER' BOOYS

[WELLS WOODS]

How could any beagler in his right mind promote a field trial format that would give credit to a dog that runs mute? I'm sorry, but that blows my mind.

[dogwhisperer]

How could any beagler in his right mind promote a field trial format that would give credit to a dog that runs mute? I'm sorry, but that blows my mind.

what format do you prefer?

[WELLS WOODS]

I know there are a lot of great dogs that run in this format (ARHA LP) and I know of some true field champions that have won these trials, so it is evident that there are judges in this format that do a great job, but to have guidelines so loosely worded that it would allow a silent hound to be given score is way off base in promoting a true rabbit hound. I do run and prefer the AKC Mid-West style; not that it is perfect, but if the AKC rulebook is followed correctly, it will at least keep the extremely faulty hounds from winning over a true, honest rabbit hound.

[wildcatfan0309]

this dog is not silent
he does bark

[scott calkins]

like i said iam not taking anything from the dog whistler just the fact that in any other registy this fault wouldnot be tolerated. there were three judges there that knew this dogs fault and stayed on top of him because of it. and as faor as speed i run AKC LARGEpack on hare and mid west spo and have placed in both i knwo what a fast dog with line control is. if any of you want to come run hare with and see UR invited . the dog i was running that day was9yrs old yes he has lost a few steps but can hang with anything . especialy on snow the people that have run with this dog from the south to canada can atest to that not the fasest dog but a great check dog and the best gun dog i have ever had the pleasure of being in the woods with. but my post had nothing to do with my dog just the fact that arha needs to implement a rule for this like every other registry has. to make it a format that betters the breed not hinder it.

[Spruce Ridge Beagler]

Wells Woods and Blue Tick you hit the nail on the head. This is little pack not AKC, you can't impose AKC rules on little pack or vice versa. You have the option to run what you like. Both formats have their faults and no format is perfect so lets leave it at that.
Scott, as far as MI beaglers bringing something to light or whatever you meant to say, you my friend are the one that protested, you my friend are the one on here calling people out. As far as I am concerned you shed your own light, not Mi beaglers or the "In Crowd" as you put it.
Like I said in my pm to you, if I said or did something to offend you I am truly sorry.
Please feel free to call me, you have my #
Take care, Dave

Outside of the personal attacks this is however a good topic for discussion