cold nose
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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bob huffman
v
So I know what they are doing and that they have made contact with the quarry trail. It would take a pretty smart dog to know when he strikes a track whether or not the rabbit is sitting, sleeping, eating breakfast or taking a shower. When a good cold nosed dog hits and opens on a track, they will put a rabbit on the end of it and if they don't, they are no good. My Sadie dog barks once and then drifts and then barks again 40 yards or so etc. Rabbits don't take off running just because they hear a dog bark a couple times unless the dog is pretty close by. On the other hand, if they jump them, it can scare the heck out of the rabbit and he will run scared at times and run much harder. I have noticed that a dogs mouth has a lot to do with how rabbits run. A deep easy mouth doesn't scare them as bad as a high pitched squall or chop. Rabbits don't have them big ears for nothing. They use them to hear as well as heat regulation.
Steve: This might help you to understand the point of view against cold trailing and not against a powerful nose; often the worst offenders of Cold trailing have weak noses, while other hounds with extremely powerful noses do not cold trail. Remember when speaking of cold trailing we are talking about before the rabbit is disturbed from his form. No one would fault your hound for picking along at a weak trail (cold line) when you have seen the rabbit moveing.
Joe having had dogs for 25yrs I think I know what cold trailing is,have seen it rabbit,coon fox and coyote hunting.Now everybody knows the differance between powerful (nose) Weak (nose) but no matter how you or anyone else cuts it COLD (trail) COLD (line) cold means cold means cold.It gets real tiring trying to explain these different hunting situation I've encountered and you keep talking about rabbits sitting in forms,gun hunters I know don't talk this way Field trial guys might don't know for sure,but if I see a rabbit sitting tight whether myself or in company we say there's a rabbit sitting not, hey I see a rabbit in his form.
Any how one last atempt on this COLD thing.Temp. is 5deg. 6" snow 2days old dogs jump hare run hit and miss, what ever but anyhow a stray was seen you call the dogs over now the time could verycould be 2-5-10-15-ect you get my drift I hope the key is the temps the snow condition and the ability of the dogs.No matter how you want to that hare has gone in there and sat (or returned to a so called form) ( that sounds so cracked to me) Anyways the line is cold the trail is cold because my brain fingers and toes tell me its COLD and line and trail have the same definition in my book.Now the sooner the dogs are put on this line the better the chance of jumping this hare and in these cold temps minutes mean alot,a 5 min. cold line is easier then a 15min line,but one thing I do know you need a dog with a good nose and brains to run this track and even the good dogs will not show you the hare on a regular basis because this is down right tough hunting.Does that mean these dogs are at fault I don't think so cause there isn't a dog alive that can produce every time.So Joe,laal or anyone else who wants to twist this around,remeber whether the track was made the nite before,3hrs ago or 20mins ago the critter is sitting again and the trail is getting COLD and to say otherwise only shows that a closed mind is one that thinks they know it all and like one breeder once said every day is a learning experience with dogs and once you think you know it all it's time to get out of dogs,I for one like to learn. I also am not trying to push my gun hunting rules on anyother hunter or field trialer or use trial jargon to confuse the simple minds of gun hunters and if I have I applogise.Steve
Any how one last atempt on this COLD thing.Temp. is 5deg. 6" snow 2days old dogs jump hare run hit and miss, what ever but anyhow a stray was seen you call the dogs over now the time could verycould be 2-5-10-15-ect you get my drift I hope the key is the temps the snow condition and the ability of the dogs.No matter how you want to that hare has gone in there and sat (or returned to a so called form) ( that sounds so cracked to me) Anyways the line is cold the trail is cold because my brain fingers and toes tell me its COLD and line and trail have the same definition in my book.Now the sooner the dogs are put on this line the better the chance of jumping this hare and in these cold temps minutes mean alot,a 5 min. cold line is easier then a 15min line,but one thing I do know you need a dog with a good nose and brains to run this track and even the good dogs will not show you the hare on a regular basis because this is down right tough hunting.Does that mean these dogs are at fault I don't think so cause there isn't a dog alive that can produce every time.So Joe,laal or anyone else who wants to twist this around,remeber whether the track was made the nite before,3hrs ago or 20mins ago the critter is sitting again and the trail is getting COLD and to say otherwise only shows that a closed mind is one that thinks they know it all and like one breeder once said every day is a learning experience with dogs and once you think you know it all it's time to get out of dogs,I for one like to learn. I also am not trying to push my gun hunting rules on anyother hunter or field trialer or use trial jargon to confuse the simple minds of gun hunters and if I have I applogise.Steve
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Steve C.
Bob, sounds like you have a fine hound there. No one loves a cold nosed hound more than I do. Ran a few of them yesterday in fact. It wasn't a really tough day- temps in the teens, a foot of week old snow with a fairly hard crust, no wind. I decided to take a 12 1/2 year old bitch out for a short hunt. She had been one of my best hounds ever but at the age of 11, I was putting all my time into the young hounds so I never hunted her last year. Last July she tore the ACL in her knee and it looked like she'd run her last hare. It seemed to have healed itself over the last few months so despite a bit of worry, off we went. I turned her loose and she immediately took to cover, made a wide circle, then crossed the trail. Finding nothing there, she crossed back, went a bit deeper and struck. The chase was on. She could only run at half the speed she used to, but when the hare crossed the trail in front of me (too soon to shoot) she crossed right on line, head in the air, tonguing away. Often a hound runs tracks in the snow but on this crust, it was pure nose work. To make a long story short, we had a few checks, one of them lasting a few minutes where the hare crossed a small stream, but after nearly two hours, I killed him when he broke cover into an alder swale. This hare had rerun it's own line several times during the chase which can confuse a hound pretty quick if he doesn't stay fairly close to the game. I've seen many hounds who didn't have this much nose take the wrong trail when two tracks seperate. They may not be able to tell which track is the hottest. Some hounds have enough nose to ALWAYS know which is the hottest track. After taking the old dog home, I took her daughter and a young one out for the afternoon. Had a jump immediately and a screaming run covering about 5 acres that lasted maybe 5 minutes when he crossed back in front of me near where they'd jumped him. Hare in the bag. Had another going after about 15 minutes but this one gave the hounds some trouble- frequent checks and some periods where only the older of the two hounds could claim the track. I ended up wounding the hare on this circle which gave the dogs fits following the line in the area where I shot. Eventually they got him going again but did a lot more picking than driving as the hare had gotten a long ways ahead of the hounds. After about an hour, he finally appeared along the edge of a fir thicket and I collected him. It took the hounds a full 10 minutes to come along with the older dog picking and grinding all the way to the dead hare while the youngster hardly barked. I think that's what we all mean by cold nose. Never once did I see a bark out of place though so it goes to show that nose and mouth are not hard-wired to each other. With a tough track like this, half my kennel would have lost the hare, the other half are the ones I'm breeding. Be proud of that hound Bob, one day he'll be 12 years old and you'll cherish those last few hunts with a great old hound.
Just wanted to brag a little about my pup, who appears to me at this point anyway, is going to be a good cold trailer.
Went out saturday. Snow depth was about 20". I walked through about a 20 acre over grown apple orchard and did not see a rabbit track one. I had my 8 mo. pup and my 6 year old male. The pup opened and ran the line to a hole. (I was standing there and watched her) She checked the hole and didn't seem to be satisfied the rabbit went in. In the mean time, my male was on his way in to her. She worked the line hit and miss for about 20 or 30 yards. Then she let loose. I knew she had put her nose on the bunnies butt. Then the male opened.
Now guys, I'm not getting back into the cold trail or not to cold trail question. We are all well aware of everyones difference of opinion. But after I shot that rabbit. I was wondering. Can she smell the rabbit when my male can't, or can he smell it too and just doesn't care. I know my male has a good nose. I've watched him pull a few things with his nose that made me go "Wow!" I really wonder where the difference is though. Why will she open and work the line when he won't? I guess we'll probably never know for sure.
Anyway, I'm real proud of this pup so far. She is doing a hell of job. They also jumped a deer up right in front of them that day and she didn't pay it any attention. As far as I know that was the 1st one to jump up in front of her.
Went out saturday. Snow depth was about 20". I walked through about a 20 acre over grown apple orchard and did not see a rabbit track one. I had my 8 mo. pup and my 6 year old male. The pup opened and ran the line to a hole. (I was standing there and watched her) She checked the hole and didn't seem to be satisfied the rabbit went in. In the mean time, my male was on his way in to her. She worked the line hit and miss for about 20 or 30 yards. Then she let loose. I knew she had put her nose on the bunnies butt. Then the male opened.
Now guys, I'm not getting back into the cold trail or not to cold trail question. We are all well aware of everyones difference of opinion. But after I shot that rabbit. I was wondering. Can she smell the rabbit when my male can't, or can he smell it too and just doesn't care. I know my male has a good nose. I've watched him pull a few things with his nose that made me go "Wow!" I really wonder where the difference is though. Why will she open and work the line when he won't? I guess we'll probably never know for sure.
Anyway, I'm real proud of this pup so far. She is doing a hell of job. They also jumped a deer up right in front of them that day and she didn't pay it any attention. As far as I know that was the 1st one to jump up in front of her.
Laal wrote: I wish you could tell me why a dog should bark before it has a rabbit up
And I wish someone could give me a good reason for them not to.Unless of course you like walking extra miles out of the way.It is nice to know which way they are heading.
I may be new to beagle field trials but not hunting dog trials in general.Spend some time and shoe leather at them and you quickly see what is winning and why.
These dogs are in the minority and few more genrations of of field trial breeding they will be gone mostly.That goes for their big cousins the coon / fox etc hounds as well.They breed what will win. Hot to med nose and no cold trailing.They also want a dog with a little extra mouth it seems to me.That way he or she can look good even when they don't have a clue as to where the track really is in a hard check.Get credit and stay down when they should be picked up.
Good all around hunting hounds
seldom get to go to the breeding barn.Just the ones that have the traits that win field trials.
Hunt6
And I wish someone could give me a good reason for them not to.Unless of course you like walking extra miles out of the way.It is nice to know which way they are heading.
I may be new to beagle field trials but not hunting dog trials in general.Spend some time and shoe leather at them and you quickly see what is winning and why.
These dogs are in the minority and few more genrations of of field trial breeding they will be gone mostly.That goes for their big cousins the coon / fox etc hounds as well.They breed what will win. Hot to med nose and no cold trailing.They also want a dog with a little extra mouth it seems to me.That way he or she can look good even when they don't have a clue as to where the track really is in a hard check.Get credit and stay down when they should be picked up.
Good all around hunting hounds
seldom get to go to the breeding barn.Just the ones that have the traits that win field trials.
Hunt6
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blackdirt beagles
seems that most of the guys who slam dogs that can cold trail and produce are basically ignorant of what a real dog is. just because they dont have a dog that can do it, they just say its a fault and then feel better about their dogs. my dogs are upper med speed, but i dont say fast dogs are faulty just because i dont own one. if i could get a fast one that meets all my other standards i would definately keep it, but til that happens, i dont slam them just because i dont own one.
talking about standards: what was considered standard back in the 1950's and 60's might not be the same today. things change. lots of rules have been modified or changed completely for a lot of the modern rules. remember brace dogs? they were the standard way back when. how many of you guys who quote the standard keep brace dogs?? and if you dont, then why not, because you cant go against the standard can you??
talking about standards: what was considered standard back in the 1950's and 60's might not be the same today. things change. lots of rules have been modified or changed completely for a lot of the modern rules. remember brace dogs? they were the standard way back when. how many of you guys who quote the standard keep brace dogs?? and if you dont, then why not, because you cant go against the standard can you??
Good post Hunt6. I'm with you on the field trials. I enjoy them very much and always have a great time. But I've said over and over, they do not find the best hunting beagles. If you have a good dog that consistently brings the rabbit to the gun, you'll have your share of places and wins. But there are a lot of junk champions out there. Waaayyyy to many!
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bob huffman
b
It warms my heart to see there are others out there than know what a good hunting dog is. Good post by Hunt6 and the Steves and John and others. The rule book will get you in trouble and just like a mean wife, you will stay because you have a lot invested and don't want to get wiped out in divorce court. I have had some mean women and hot nosed dogs around here but I always changed their address because I don't need the grief. Barney Fife used to say NIP IT IN THE BUD ANDY, NIP IT!!!! I hate to use this analogy, but in school we had to study Marxs theory of communism. He predicted the working masses would rise up and take control of the gov when they finally got fed up. He said that everyone would be equal in the economic world and all would work as one with no elitism. When you read his doctrine it does make sense and sounds like a good system to live under. The only problem was he left out the part about human nature. He forgot that humans won't work unless they have a motivation and know they will be rewarded. Why work harder if you will recieve the same pay as someone who is lazy? Why try to invent things if there is no reward. Why have horse race if everyone gets the same amount of purse money at the end. No one will try to win and they will just coast along with the status quo. The theory of running a rabbit can be much differant than the real thing. Don't mess with mother nature too much or think you are smarter than she is. It is best to realize you are part of nature and go with the flow. Stick to reality and try to observe the world of nature and undertand it as a participating member. Quit trying to CONTROL it and start cooperating with it. You will be much happier.
Steve: Well now you have seen a hunter who uses the terms that I use because I am not a field trialer. The term form is the proper term used to describe the place a rabbit sits. IN snow or grass you will see the outline left by the rabbit and that is his form.
Okay you see the rabbit and it has been a while and according to the conditions the line is cold. It doesn't seem to matter to you that the definition of cold trailing is opening on a line that was made the night before or hours earlier. If you want to call a hound who opens on a cold line a cold trailer that's okay. It could vary well be that they are cold trailers because the mark of a cold trailer is wasted time. That is opening on a line that they cannot get the rabbit up on. Now any cold trailer, even the worst ones, will get a rabbit up by cold trailing once in a while and their handlers may then brag about how the hound managed to get a rabbit up when no other hound would open on the line but that is when they forget about all of the times that the hound opend and didn't do anything but waste time. We've already established that sombobys cold trailers fail to produce their game 20% of the time when they open on a cold line. Some hounds know when they have a line that they can accomplish their task of finding and running their rabbit on and some hounds don't. That is, they open before they know if the line is workable or not or they just really don't know or care. You may desire such a hound and that is okay for you. But I would prefer a hound that knows what the hell he's doing and isn't so foolish as to proclaim a line that is not workable. Now I didn't say I prefer a hound with a weaker nose I said I prefer a hound who knows what he's doing and that is the difference between a hound who we must check on when he opens to see if maybe he has a rabbit up and a hound who we know has a rabbit up when he opens.
Okay you see the rabbit and it has been a while and according to the conditions the line is cold. It doesn't seem to matter to you that the definition of cold trailing is opening on a line that was made the night before or hours earlier. If you want to call a hound who opens on a cold line a cold trailer that's okay. It could vary well be that they are cold trailers because the mark of a cold trailer is wasted time. That is opening on a line that they cannot get the rabbit up on. Now any cold trailer, even the worst ones, will get a rabbit up by cold trailing once in a while and their handlers may then brag about how the hound managed to get a rabbit up when no other hound would open on the line but that is when they forget about all of the times that the hound opend and didn't do anything but waste time. We've already established that sombobys cold trailers fail to produce their game 20% of the time when they open on a cold line. Some hounds know when they have a line that they can accomplish their task of finding and running their rabbit on and some hounds don't. That is, they open before they know if the line is workable or not or they just really don't know or care. You may desire such a hound and that is okay for you. But I would prefer a hound that knows what the hell he's doing and isn't so foolish as to proclaim a line that is not workable. Now I didn't say I prefer a hound with a weaker nose I said I prefer a hound who knows what he's doing and that is the difference between a hound who we must check on when he opens to see if maybe he has a rabbit up and a hound who we know has a rabbit up when he opens.
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blackdirt beagles
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bob huffman
b
As for the standard, it is good to remember that words aren't truth. My words or anyones words are mearly symbols we have invented to try and represent the truth. They are representations of what we think the truth is. They can never be truth in its completeness. Truth is something that has been shown to conform with nature. The truth that takes place when a dog runs a rabbit can never be a complete truth by putting it into words.
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WELLS WOODS
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The AKC standard was written for judges to go by to insure that extremely faulty hounds do not place in field trials. We do not go to the field looking for a perfect hound because if you eliminate every hound with a minor fault you'll end up with hounds unable to produce and account for his game. Hounds with faults that far outweigh thier positive contribution to the hunt should be eliminated first. Then hounds that have had no or little contribution to the hunt should be eliminated even though they might not have made any mistakes; they just got beat by better hounds.
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New York Hillbilly
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