What still constitutes a bloodline

[Bev]

Bev with what you wrote and how little experience hunting or running in extreme conditions you have, it's obvious you don't know what your talking about. There is no logical reason to discuss the matter further.

If you want to get technical about it, I have more experience in extreme weather conditions than you. You only know the cold, and since you live practically next door to the Krpans and have never looked into their dogs, I'll guess you haven't ventured too far from home. Tell you what. Fix your passport, head south, and find yourself a good strain of cottontail dogs that can do it in 90+ temps on a dry dusty road, and I'll betcha you'll have dogs that can do it in below zero temps. Then you can come tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. In fact, go get some of Mark Carder's bloodline. There's a predominately cottontail line in WV that does plenty of hot weather running, and as mentioned by Larry, is in a video on another thread running in - 7 degree weather.

Larry, I know Mark is calling it nose. Everybody calls it nose. Good nose, big nose, cold nose, hot nose, no nose... And that's okay. It's pretty much a vernacular term like "the rabbit's up" or the dog's got "no foot." I don't take that to mean the dog doesn't have anything below the ankles. But if you get outside what we call it in our casual mode and really look at it, all this "nose" everyone is talking about is actually a dog's ability to properly interpret and act upon what his nose tells him, like Kurt said when he posted this:

That is not too much nose- it is not being able to use it correctly, very common problem. Too much nose is not. Kurt Robinson

If this were not so, then their would never be mouthy dogs, backtrackers, liars, cold trailers...and brace dogs.

For the record, in the 9 years I've had this board, I've never kicked anyone off for disagreeing with me. If I did that, there would only be about 3 members, lol. But, after this debate on nose, I don't want to try and explain the difference between disagreeing and disrespecting. Sometimes it's a fine line that gets crossed when someone gets really frustrated.

Good luck in your search for a good dog, Norwester.

[NorWester1]

Hypothetically, let's say for the sake of arguement Norwester's theory on nose is correct and Bev's theory is wrong.
So what...so breed for nose if your environment requires extra nose power. The brace beaglers like to breed for walkie talkies or the guys who run in ARHA Big Pack breed for big strong hounds with speed, drive and endurance.
It doesn't make your dogs better than a dog that is bred for different traits or emphasis placed elsewhere.
Every year we get the posts about how great my snow dogs are and how inferior yours are because they cant run in minus 35 degree powder. Who cares!

Personally speaking I'll say I think it's probably a combination of both raw nose power (physiologically speaking) and "brains" although I don't like the way that is used as a catch all type phrase.

I never said my dogs were better than anyones in ANY area. This got started with Maple Valley writing that basically his dogs could do it, better on snow and better on sod than mine. I simply offered a polite invitation to come up this way as I'd like to see it. Hell, I don't know....maybe he's right. I'd still like to see it because if he IS right I'd like to get some hounds like his.

I wouldnt think you would care if your dogs could or couldnt run in -35 degree powder, unless of course you are trying to do just that.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

BEV
OF WHAT TIME I HAVE BEEN VISITING THIS BOARD,I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST THREADS YET.I NEVER SAW SO MANY PEOPLE SAYING THE SAME THING DIFFERENTLY.I THINK THAT MOST HOUNDS ARE BORN WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF RECEPTORS .BUT LIKE EVERY THING ELSE THEY' CANNOT USE ALL OF THEM' SOME HOUNDS USE MORE THAN OTHERS FOR WHAT EVER REASON.--MOST PEOPLE ARE BORN WITH THE SAME SIZE BRAIN YET THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT I.Q.'S(,I.Q.'S ARE LEARNED) I WONDER IF THEY CAN BE CONDITIONED TO US MORE THAN THEY DO''' OR IS USING MORE RECEPTORS A GENETIC THING BECAUSE SOME BLOOD LINE SEEM TO SMELL MUCH BETTER THAN OTHERS..JUST A THOUGHT.THERE IS SOME GOOD INFORMATION ON THIS POST.. HOPE IT STAY'S ACTIVE-----------
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Bev]

Well said, Pine MTN. And in that same vein, I will suggest the possibility also exists that some lines are inherently more intelligent overall than others.

[NorWester1]

If you want to get technical about it, I have more experience in extreme weather conditions than you. You only know the cold, and since you live practically next door to the Krpans and have never looked into their dogs, I'll guess you haven't ventured too far from home. Tell you what. Fix your passport, head south, and find yourself a good strain of cottontail dogs that can do it in 90+ temps on a dry dusty road, and I'll betcha you'll have dogs that can do it in below zero temps. Then you can come tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. In fact, go get some of Mark Carder's bloodline. There's a predominately cottontail line in WV that does plenty of hot weather running, and as mentioned by Larry, is in a video on another thread running in - 7 degree weather.

There is a fellow that I did correspond with who lives in the same area as Branko, has a couple of hounds direct from Branko and has done some running with him. Interesting that he found himself in a similar predicament. He related to me how on this very subject that he had asked Branko about it. Branko stated his dogs couldn't run in it either. After hearing that and considering cost, I haven't made it a priority to follow up. I do plan to eventually however, like I wrote previously.

As to the cottontail dogs that can do it in 90+ temps on dry dusty roads being able to do it in below zero temps......you might be on to something there. I've often wondered if a hound that could run a rabbit, in say the southwest area of the states where it is notoriously dry and hot would have what it takes to do it here, and in fact I alluded to that about 10 pages and 15 posts ago (or there abouts)

For the record, in the 9 years I've had this board, I've never kicked anyone off for disagreeing with me. If I did that, there would only be about 3 members, lol. But, after this debate on nose, I don't want to try and explain the difference between disagreeing and disrespecting. Sometimes it's a fine line that gets crossed when someone gets really frustrated.

Good luck in your search for a good dog, Norwester

You were contemplating banning someone, me?? Thats curious to say the least I think. In my opinion this has been a discussion/debate, nothing more. I'll say right off that I'm certainly not frustrated or upset but I can read between the lines and it must be that you are. A good stage at which to part company as they say given the state of affairs.

Thank you, I'm confident I will eventually.

[Bev]

Good LORD, Norwester! There you go again...accusing me of saying/doing/thinking something I didn't. Those were LARRY'S words, not mine. Why he thought I would ban someone is beyond me. No offense, man, but please read the posts before you reply. Chill. Jeez. LOL.

Oh and if Branko is convinced his dogs can't run in -35 degrees, consider the possibility that somewhere just above that is a dog's (any dog's) "smell tolerance." It could be at those temps the scent is reduced to a faintness that a hound would consider it old, and not run it. I'm just sayin'. You may never get what you want.

[NorWester1]

You're right, I didnt realize you were referring to Larry's post which is why I found your statment about banning curious ..... So many posts and posters I'm just attempting to weed out the stuff that pertains only to me, and not doing it very well apparently

I think Branko for the most part caters to the trial crowd, ( I'm sure that statement will over turn the apple cart ) and that certainly has an impact. I have seen hounds that could run in extreme temps, so I know they are out there. Getting it on consistent basis may take some time as I can't imagine there are too many others interested in such an endeavor, but there are a few.

[KesslerBeagles]

Can't remember where right now, but I read that a long snouted dog has more scent receptors than a short snouted dog. And we all know that a Bloodhound is supposed to be the king of scent hounds, able to track a man days after he left a trail. So, could the Pug or English Bull do the same, if he only were a bit smarter, and set his mind to it?

I have read it on the following link: http://lanelinebeagles.zoomshare.com/16.html I think what many of you are talking about is the last part on this link when you scroll down.

[mybeagles]

Could part of the lack of nose in the beagles today have something to do with the snipe nosed tiny little headed dogs being bred? If you notice, many of the brace hounds or "big nosed" hounds have nice big blocky heads with long ears that are used for stirring up the scent. Unfortunately many of the Field trial hounds look more like terriers than beagles. The 2 dogs I have owned that I would consider snow dogs had small noses and heads with short snouts. Kind of kills this argument.

Making a direct link with nose to brains would be suggesting that the smartest dogs are the ones that give the right amount of tongue to suit you. Who is to say what the perfect amount of tongue is. As stated earlier, some breeds greatly credit cold trailing and consider those dogs brilliant and priceless. I believe there are dogs that bark freely that are complete fools and dogs that bark freely that are very smart. Likewise there are dogs with tight mouths that are complete fools and dogs with tight mouth that are brilliant. All things being equal, if a dog efficiently and effectively uses more of the receptors he has a good nose, if he doesnt he has a poor one. I dont think all things are equal, I think some beagles have more efficient or better developed sense of smell through selective breeding for it.

With the other argument about back tracking, if someone in the room has an appropriate amount of perfume on you can tell who is wearing the perfume pretty quick. If the room is saturated with perfume its hard to tell who's wearing it until you walk around for a minute and find where the concentration is at. I think a similar thing happens with "big nosed dogs". The two I had with big noses would take 8-10 steps backwards before getting it straight on occation. More so than a hot nosed dog that doesnt bark till they go 20 yards down the track.

I like smart dogs, but I have owned smart dogs that were poor field performers. I have also owned beagles that were fairly stupid but performed pretty well under the gun. Admitidly, a great dog is smart and performs well.

[Dr. Chris]

Can't remember where right now, but I read that a long snouted dog has more scent receptors than a short snouted dog. And we all know that a Bloodhound is supposed to be the king of scent hounds, able to track a man days after he left a trail. So, could the Pug or English Bull do the same, if he only were a bit smarter, and set his mind to it?

I have read it on the following link: http://lanelinebeagles.zoomshare.com/16.html I think what many of you are talking about is the last part on this link when you scroll down.

Good link, a lot to be learned there. And Bev, right on the money! You indeed do your homework.

[Bev]

With the other argument about back tracking, if someone in the room has an appropriate amount of perfume on you can tell who is wearing the perfume pretty quick. If the room is saturated with perfume its hard to tell who's wearing it until you walk around for a minute and find where the concentration is at. I think a similar thing happens with "big nosed dogs". The two I had with big noses would take 8-10 steps backwards before getting it straight on occation. More so than a hot nosed dog that doesnt bark till they go 20 yards down the track.

I beg to disagree. This is where it helps to stop speculating and start reading/researching. There's all this information out there to help people understand their dogs, but many are of a mindset that...well their mind is set that they know all they need to know, and they will make up what sounds reasonable for what they don't. Dogs smell in layers. Did you know that? It doesn't matter about concentration or numbers of smells around. Dogs are able to separate smell and isolate them. The problem with the backtracking dog is that he doesn't distinguish between ascending scent and descending scent. He's just following the scent he managed to isolate, and thinks no further than that. He may be a genius when it comes to doing house tricks for treats, but he's not very rabbit smart.

This will give you something to chew on:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/sto ... 330617.htm

Thanks Chris! I studied wolf pack behavior and pack dynamics in general before I got into beagles, and it took me other places about dogs in general. They being such pack animals, a lot of it bleeds over, but many wolfish behaviors are still manifest in the foo-foo dogs, too.

[Larry G]

Ascending and descending scent would make scents (pun intended) if the quarry was laying a trail unaffected by wind, changes in surface, and in a straight line instead of loops, zig zags and long doublebacks. That never happens in the real world. It's common for a rabbit to leave a lot of strong scent in a moist thicket protected from wind where it has laid a lot of tracks for the dogs to figure out, and nearly none where it then shot down a bare hardpan path exposed to the wind.

Only by experience, and by learning from other dogs, does a hound learn to do what it takes to keep the chase going. It involves leaving that last track that smells so good to find where the rabbit went that may not smell quite so good. It is certainly not just following from weaker to stronger smells.

[mybeagles]

Funny how this doesnt happen when scenting is tough, must be not so many layers to work through

Bev, with all the knowledge you have of the pack animals, it might be better if you just publish your works here on the board for all to read and if we have any questions we can just ask your supporting cast. The condesending nature of your posts are very entertaining to me. Effective technique to keep everyone coming back for more. Imagine what would happen if people talked to eachother like this in person......

[Tim H]

Another good example of how dogs smell different/better than we do, is if you go into a flower shop, you smell flowers. If you leave the flowershop, in a few minutes you will no longer smell flowers. However, take a dog into that same flower shop with you and the dog will smell not just the roses and carnations and babies breath, but will smell every individual flower as well. When the dog leaves the flower shop with you the dog has what is known as strong scent memory. That is to say, for a very long time the dog will still smell the individual flowers in that shop. That is why, for example, I can give my tracking beagle(Sam) the scent of an article someone has touched (they just have to touch it) and he can follow their track for miles and pick them out of a crowd. He uses his scent memory to compare it to the scent picture he gets as he follows the trail and ultimately finds the person.

As for backtracking, there have been studies done that suggest that dogs can find the direction of scent, just based on the tiny separation between their 2 nostrils. People, when trained properly can even do this blindfolded. So dogs can and do find the direction of the trail in just one footprint. A dog that backtracks, is not doing so because of it's strong nose but instead it lacks the brains to process what it's nose (strong or weak) is telling it.

I'm no expert on scent, I don't think any human is, but there is a load of proven science out there that can be very enlightening. In search and rescue we have to know what is science and what is theory because we may have to testify in court and explain how our dog found what they did. It has helped me tremendously in evaluating hunting dogs and understanding what they are doing.

When I train people as they come into search and rescue, I explain scent this way. Watch your dog and let the dog describe what the scent is doing and you will learn more from that dog than from any book or teacher. Reading a book or having a teacher explain scent is like having a blind man explain what Piccasso is doing. Watch Piccasso work and you'll learn more. You will also see that the blind man rarely has much of value to add to what you've seen Piccasso do. There is more not known about how and why dogs use scent the way they do than there is known. There are also far more theory's than there are provable answers.

When it comes to scent even the biggest knucklehead dog out there is still closer to being right about what scent is doing than the most educated human.

[NorWester1]

Maybe I'm missing something here or not understanding properly. But what does a dogs ability to detect DIFFERENT scents in an area have to do with determining the direction and origin?

Ascending and descending scent would make scents (pun intended) if the quarry was laying a trail unaffected by wind, changes in surface, and in a straight line instead of loops, zig zags and long doublebacks. That never happens in the real world. It's common for a rabbit to leave a lot of strong scent in a moist thicket protected from wind where it has laid a lot of tracks for the dogs to figure out, and nearly none where it then shot down a bare hardpan path exposed to the wind.

Only by experience, and by learning from other dogs, does a hound learn to do what it takes to keep the chase going. It involves leaving that last track that smells so good to find where the rabbit went that may not smell quite so good. It is certainly not just following from weaker to stronger smells

That's a pretty good post I think