Who is breeding for the total dog. Form and function

SouthernBeagles · Post by **SouthernBeagles** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:04 am

Personally I think your gyp is a whole lot closer to the standard than the male! She blows him away! I judge bench and would put her over him any day of the week! Nice female!!!!

TC · Post by TC » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:18 am

What is the breeding of those hounds? If you don't mind would you post a couple more pictures of the dogs showing the front back and sides of them. I do have to admit I also like the conformation of the bitch by far more then the males. She is very well put together in the front from what I see and nice lines to her as well and if you look her rear is in line with the front as it should be. No wonder she out does those males.

Lefgren-Lane · Post by **Lefgren-Lane** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:11 am

Incahoots,
I agree with Southern, etc. The male looks like he is out in the elbows.
The dam is Branko breeding.
LaMarr,
Your observations are good ones. The show ring thinks they are building a hound that meets the standard but actually do not have a clue what kind of hound the standard describes. Show beagles are built to be trotters, hare hounds are built to be gallopers. The beagle standard describes an English Pack Beagle which is a galloper. By observation and experience you know the difference and yours is the correct one.

Take a look at some of the pics on this web site.
http://www.beaglesinperil.org.uk/index.html

Take a look at the first pic under the section on Breeding Strategy. The Chocolate bitch from her pic is very nice indeed. I wish I had a kennel full of that kind.

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:08 pm

In haste I probally put up a bad picture of the males. They are standing on an inch of ice while another dog was still running. Hence the elbows poping out, they were wanting to jump in. I'll upload/take some more. The female is in WV atm being bred so I can't take more of her till she's back. The males in the pic do have better conformation esp the one on the left. I'll be back in a bit gotta run some dogs, gotta love working 10 hr days and running in the dark 6 days a week! lol

Beagle Huntsman · Post by **Beagle Huntsman** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:50 pm

I also liked the bitch better. I didn't care much for her head, but thought her body length, elbow, and depth of chest seemed better than the male's. Photos can deceive, though.

I also agree some show lines will give you "trotters", or hounds with choppy, short strides. Those do not last in the field, at least not for long periods of hard running. Other show lines are much better, and will give you "gallopers" if the right crosses are made.

The English pack beagles are built better for long hours/years of the chase than any other beagle in the world. I question how they would do on cottontail, around deer, etc. I've watched them run cottontail several times through the years, but have not been overly impressed, except with the Nantucket-Treweryn when Mr. and Mrs. Sharp had them. That mostly English pack was tremendous, although oldtimers said they were even better before the English influence got to be so great in the pack. I'd like to see more English hounds on cottontail before making a final decision as to their usefulness.

Proper conformation gives ease of movement. It stands to reason that a hound built to move effortlessly will outlast a hound that is laboring even slightly to move, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. Properly built hounds are quick and athletic and almost seem to glide over the ground when they run.

TOUCHSTONE · Post by **TOUCHSTONE** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:55 pm

Many interesting posts so far. In the original post I did not clarify the meaning of total dog. To me a total dog has all the elements that will benefit maximum performance. Correct physical structure, all the necessary hunt characteristics, temperament (heart), ability to reproduce, are all included. Be cautious to assign correct structure to what may be winning at any given time in a certain registry. Many show judges in some registries have likely never seen a dog run a rabbit. They are attempting to learn a standard and apply it to the specimens in their show ring on a particular day. Most judges are only well versed in a few breeds but judge many or all breeds. Breeders can actually change breed type in order to be competitive because that is the style of dog that is winning. Others may breed to a dog that is winning many shows. The dog's record may be due to a huge and very expensive campaign, professional handling and grooming, politics.... It is up to breeders to learn correct breed type and how it directly applies to performance. Just as the original standards were written by sportsmen, It will be up to the hunting beagle community to develop the total dog. Education is a major aspect of this endeavor. The breed standard suits a medium to fast speed dog that keeps excellent line control the best. When you see a show dog on TV that has the wrong(bulging) type of muscle, takes short steps that cover little ground, is too short bodied or has a short or narrow rib cage,.....realize this is not correct for our breed even if it is represented at that particular show. There are also many correct beagles among show dogs. Used with caution these bloodlines can be part of the solution. Mitch and I and many others have been very succesful with dogs sired by Michael. Half of his pedigree is top notch show dogs. And yet look at the generations of truly great hunting beagles beeing generated by these genetics. Dan

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:33 pm

I need to take some more pictures problem is finding time.
TC The female above is Branko's Evergreen Stromy.

BRANKO'S COPPER BOY
IFC BRANKO'S ALI-BABA
BRANKO'S DOUBLE ANN

BRANKO'S EVERGREEN STORMY

IFC BRANKO'S HELI-PROP
BRANKO'S GOOD GOLLY MISS MOLLY
BRANKO'S KRISPY CRUNCH

Here are a couple more of the male in above picture on the right. Not the best pics but it's all I have uploadable atm. HBCH White River Kole, out of Stormy X GRHBCH CH WHITE RIVER BIG JAKE.

This is the male that's on the left of above picture. He's only 9 mo old so will fill out alot. PR White River Wrath of Zeus.

This is Dirty Pond Becky. Doubled up on Striker she's long and big. IMO she's a beauty!

Ky Scott · Post by **Ky Scott** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:18 pm

Hunt! Hunt! Hunt! Sure every body wants a looker. Believe me I like a good looking hound. But anybody that is trying to better the breed should biuld there foundation on hunt. I dont mean just hunting I mean down right BLOODY NASTY HUNT!!! This topic should have more post on hunt than what it does. I dont care how pretty it is, how fast, how slick on the check or on the line pounding old cottontail if it doesnt hunt hard dont breed or feed it. Just my opinion Hunt is where it starts

SouthernBeagles · Post by **SouthernBeagles** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:40 am

No offence incahoots, I still think the bitch is the better built dog from what I can see.
Can't wait till you get her back and can post more pictures of her.....at that point I may see something that makes me change my mind but from what I can see now (even in the new photo's), she is the best of the three.

whiteriver · Post by **whiteriver** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:38 am

dan u make a point about educating people about the breed

we have way to many people (that are even judging) that truly do not know the breed standard ,this creates a real problem and ill tell u why .

say it is your first trial and u decide to show your dog , and here comes a judge that is unbias and fair doing the best he can ,but there is one problem he does not know what a dog is actually suppost to look like . Well u win that show with a faulty dog and u now think u have somthing that u really dont .This guy now is pretty pumped and goes to another show and maybe the actually have a good judge and he loses with his faulty dog , now this guy thinks he got cheated because he was not eduacted on the standard by an educated judge ,

There are many similar scenarios that happen at alot of shows and just keeps adding to the problem.

another thing that i hate to see is a dog win a show especially if it is a prestigous show and that sucker aint in shape lolol i hate to see those chunky boxed up little foo foos win a bg show lololol i hope no one takes offense to that but that is how i feel

we are suppost to judge on that in ukc but it does not seem to be enforced

Dan,
i also agree with u about the judges judging different breeds that they do not see run , this is another problem that i see .
very few people can judge several different types of breeds equally good

beagle people should judge beagles(in most cases) coonhounds coonhounds and so on , Just my opinion.....

this is a good thread and i enjoy seeing others veiws on the topic

hey kevin , u know i like stormy but i cant pick her over kole and chaos in that pic lolol IMO

hows them pups doing ?

Mitch Gould

crewchf · Post by **crewchf** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:14 am

Mitch and SB,, I know you guys and (OOPS)gals know Parker, the beagle that does so well at the Eukanuba Nats. My question is,,, is that what the perfect beagle is supose to look like???

Crew Chief

whiteriver · Post by **whiteriver** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:17 am

i did not see that beagle yet at the euk nat . so it is hard for me to comment but i will say alot of times the beagles that win at those multi breed shows are not what i would call feild ready hounds and are usually to boxed up and short in length for me.

Mitch

crewchf · Post by **crewchf** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:31 am

Did the show folks develop that box look??? How did that happen and why all the confusion on what the standerd should be???

Crew Chief

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:28 am

crewchf wrote:Did the show folks develop that box look??? How did that happen and why all the confusion on what the standerd should be???

From the standard

Back, Loin and Ribs: Back short, muscular and strong. Loin broad and slightly arched, and the ribs well sprung, giving abundance of lung room.

Defects: very long or swayed or roached back. Flat, narrow loin, flat ribs.

Don't under estimate 'all breed' judges, at least with AKC judges will start out with only one breed and as they gain experence they will pick up additional breeds. By the time they are qualified to judge at the group level most will be quite knowlagable. Remember too that not all judges will like the same thing, some like dogs with more bone mass, some are motion judges, etc,etc.
When we show a dog we are asking the judge for their opinion, so don't be offended when that judges opinion is different than ours. The gals just got back from Palm Springs, where we got skunked BTW (a Reserve on Poo is all), and we had some nice dogs there. It happens!!!! Oh, and with 4,300 dogs entered (39 rings), what a zoo!!
A major trick when showing dogs is understanding what a particuler judge is looking for, and then trying to enphasize that trate (or consealing it if it is a weak point with your dog)

Mitch and SB,, I know you guys and (OOPS)gals know Parker, the beagle that does so well at the Eukanuba Nats. My question is,,, is that what the perfect beagle is supose to look like???

Leah (Parker's breeder) lives about a mile or so from us, so I have known Parker since the day he was born. While he is an outstanding example of the breed, (IMHO of course) "is that what the perfect beagle is supose to look like???", the perfect looking Beagle probablly hasn't been born yet, and probablly never will. I just don't think that there will ever be a dog that *someone* won't find falt with.

tom

crewchf · Post by **crewchf** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:35 am

Well,, that does it for my Eukanuba show dog career!!! I've got three defects and one maybe, (bugzy) !!!!!!!!!!!

Crew Chief