cold nose

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:12 pm

In AKC, if a dog cold trails before the rabbit is up and produces that rabbit , he is given credit. If he doesn't produce, he is demerited. I haven't ever seen one that could produce consistently by coldtrailing before the rabbit was up so I don't like them to bark until the rabbit has been jumped. Just because I haven't seen one doesn't mean there aren't any. If you have one I say keep him and enjoy him.
By the term coldtrail, I mean barking on trails made the night before; I don't mean a dog with a good nose able to account for game in tough conditions.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:20 pm

Good answer.

Clyde Gott · Post by **Clyde Gott** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:33 pm

Bob Huffman said, “As for the standard, it is good to remember that words aren't truth. My words or anyones words are mearly symbols we have invented to try and represent the truth. They are representations of what we think the truth is. They can never be truth in its completeness. Truth is something that has been shown to conform with nature. The truth that takes place when a dog runs a rabbit can never be a complete truth by putting it into words.

Bob, this sounds like something I studied in my college philosophy class.

You say, “My words or any ones words are merely symbols we have invented to try and represent the truth.” Bob, what is “the truth” you mention here? And how can we know that “you” know that your words or any ones else’s words are mere symbols unless you have “the truth” on the matter.

Are you saying that there is no “standard” of truth? No, “absolute” truth? That truth is only what is “represented” in one’s mind. How did you come to establish this “truth.”

You say, “They [words] can never be truth in its completeness. How do you know this statement to be the truth? What standard did you use?

You say, “Truth is something that has been shown to conform with nature.” How do you know? What standard or rule did you use to establish this “truth?”

For there to be no alsolute truths, no set standards, you sure have made up a bunch.

Is this what ya call the “Burger King” philosophy? Have it your way!

Clyde Gott

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:43 pm

black dirt beagles: Any hound action that wastes time is a fault. When a hound opens on a trail that he cannot follow even to the point of produceing his game he has wasted time. Calling a fault a fault is not the same as slamming someones hounds. Denying that a fault is a fault just because one owns a hound who exhibits that fault is the same thinking that gave us the modern brace hounds.

Speed only becomes a liability when it is not controlled.

The old time brace hounds were considered to be too fast for the average hunter. It was the disregard of the standard that gives us the modern brace hounds. Going against the standard gave us the modern brace hounds. The trials are NOT the standard the standard is the standard. The farther away from it the trials get the less game the trial hounds are able to account for. The standard was not written just for trials but for the beagle as a breed.

Bob: You keep saying the rule book doesn't work but you never say why or what about it will fail. Perhaps you should explain why and what about the proceedure for judgeing would cause failure.

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:52 pm

joe - i aint gonna argue with you anymore. you think cold trailing is a fault - i dont. end of story. if you want to keep going, then PM me or something.

one thing - in your post you say

When a hound opens on a trail that he cannot follow even to the point of produceing his game he has wasted time.

i ask you, how did he produce, if you just stated he couldnt follow. you make no sense whatsoever.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 9:22 pm

That quote means that any trail that a hound opens on and follows that doesn't produce game is wasted time and therefore is considered a faulty action.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:53 pm

Joe, I don't want you to agree with me. I want you to disagree with me. Same with you Clyde. I want you to disagree with me.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:30 am

black dirt beagles: Wells Woods has it but to be perfectly accurate make it opens on and follows. Hounds may need to follow a line for a short distance to assess it but should do so silently until they know what they have.

Bob: That's a cop out. You want to say the standard is wrong but then not say what is wrong with it. You have made a statement that needs to be backed up with some detail.

Everyone: Faults come in degrees. There is not a hound alive that has not exhibited some faulty action at some time or another. The severity of the fault is determined by how much it interfears with or fails to promote accomplishment. Everyone of us lives with hounds who exhibit faults more or less severe depending on the hound. We do not condemn the hound for minor infractions but we realize that the action is faulty. When beaglers get together and discuss faults in hounds it is important to remember that if our hound exhibits the fault being discussed it is not a condmnation of our hound. As I said before the next thread may be about a fault that one of my hounds exhibits but I MUST call it a fault anyway.

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:03 am

every time i see a rabbit form i dig it up and put it under a tree stand... that way can still hunt rabbits when the hot nosed dogs cant run.. actually - im kidding - a little.--- NYH how u doin,,, i dont think all this arguing is a waste of time.. i see more and more people willing to admit there is a problem with lack of nose in beagles...even some of the southern guys,,, i can remember only a couple years ago that nobody seemed to admit such a thing... i havent got any good dogs yet but i have identified a lot of beagle guys id like to try a pup from... its almost two camps. guys hunting hare or cotontails that dont hole up easy can use more nose... if your running cotontails that hole up quick i can understand the need for a tite mouth hot nose dog..that kind of dog is worthless to me.... if he has a super nose and is tite mouth then i can sure use him. i got all day to get that hare once hes up... i live for that long chase... im not concerned at all if dog barks before its jumped as long as it does jump.. if conditions are such that dog cant get close i prefer a dog barking way behind to a dog that barks hit and miss style... i can tell by most dogs voice how close to the hare they are.. the steadier the dog barks the better circle a hare will run, man nothing i hate worse is that darn rabbit returning to his form over and over... pete

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:36 am

I haven't ever met anyone in the Mid-West that wants a hot-nosed(weak nosed ) dog. It doesn't matter how much desire and brains the dog has, If he can't smell it, he can't run it.
I have also never met anyone that wants his dog to bark without producing a rabbit. It doesn't matter how much nose and desire a dog has if his brain can't tell him if the rabbit track he smells is a producable line then he will always give extra mouth without producing at times.
A dog without desire is the worst of all . It doesn't matter how much ability he has without the desire to use it he is worthless.
The complete gundog must have an adequate amount of all three qualities; desire, nose and brains. These dogs will still have minor faults; but they won't be to the degree that they can't consistently produce and account for thier game. The ones that have an abundant amount of all three qualities can produce and account for game with limited faulty actions; even on tough scenting conditions.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:53 am

Is anyone breeding the type of outstanding dogs some of you folks are describing. I coon and squirrel hunted all my life and have had several outstanding dogs in both. (Yes I know what a outstanding dog is). I've seen beagles that have sold for $10,000.00 and several $2000.00 to $3000.00 dogs and and several FC's and have yet to see a top beagle (one that I think is tops). Maybe a beagle can't be as good as I think they should, I don't know. But one thing for sure I've haven't seen a real good one.
I've kill as high as 20 swamp rabbits off my dog but am still not satisfied with them. I've heard of several outstanding dog and am always disapointed when I see the run. It's always the same story-scenting, too dry-ground froze-other dogs messing them up, you get the idea. I've owned 3 COON DOGS that you could never tell any difference in the times of year or dry, wet anything-they just treed coons. Same with the Feist squirrel dogs. Don't get me wrong I've seen some pretty good beagles but not what I think they should be. I thought a good dog should be able to run a rabbit in any company and any conditions byt what from what I'm always reading that's not the case.

I would drive a longs ways to too a dog that could run in any conditions and with any pack and run the rabbit regardless of what the other dogs do.

Also cold nose and cold trailing has nothing to do with each other. I've got a female that will walk a rabbit down the middle of the road and the other dogs can't smell it but she wont cold trail at all. Now she is cold nosed! Just because a dog cold trails don't mean they have good nose at all. Most are idiots that run their mouth much before the rabbit is up.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think somewhere there is a good beagle.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:05 am

I'd like to give an example of how a dog who doesn't open on a cold track yet can work the line is preferred over the hound who opens immediately on finding scent. This actually happened last winter on a very cold windy day on old crusty snow. I had 3 hounds down for half an hour as we slowly worked along a trail with good cover on either side. One veteran bitch, one young but experienced bitch and a youngster. All hard hunters. It is unusual to hunt this piece without a quick start. All dogs were working independently yet no start. My hunting buddy and I were on the trail when we noticed the older bitch seem to strike sent just off the trail. The tail was going, body moving side to side and you could tell she was wanting to open. We just watched and waited while she worked this track. I thought she'd jump the hare at any moment but on she went. After going about 150 feet, she suddenly stopped, turned and RAN back past us, put her nose down where she first encountered the line, opened and went about 15 feet when I saw the hare jump from a clump of swale grass and the chase was on with the other two hounds harking in. My buddy asked me what we had just witnessed. My answer was, "Brains". Now, that dog is as cold nosed as any I've ever had, yet did not proclaim the find til she knew the track was runnable. Had she opened sooner, she'd have been guilty of backtracking and calling the other hounds into a backtrack as well. When you see things like this, suddenly the reasons for the standard become evident. If anyone takes the time to to really READ the AKC rule book, the genius of it becomes apparent. Had my dog immediately opened on that line, calling the other hounds to her, they likely would have talked each other into continuing on the backtrack til it became a dead track. One of them may have figured it out and we may even have ended up killing the hare, but that would have made it much more unlikely. None of these hounds are perfect, but it sure makes you proud when your hound does it right in front of another houndsman.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:14 am

PHILLIP, The very good dogs are few and far between; ones that could do it right in all conditions no matter what the circumstance. I've judged a lot of dogs and I've seen a few that were great on that day, but how do I know that they are great all the time under different conditions; I don't. I have some dogs that suit me most of the time , but not all the time. I will mention a couple guys dogs that I've judged only because I've seen them on both good and bad scenting days. When conditions called for a dog to walk the track, they were the ones controlling the track and when conditions allowed them to get up and drive they would lead the pack. They proved to me that they were superior in any situation. Near FC JR TOP GUN TYKE & IFC STONEY HILLS TAMARAK, both from Michigan. I've heard that IFC Melanson's Ranger Dan, IFC Mark V's Ace In The Hole, and IFC Branko's Heli-Prop were this good also, but I did not see them run.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:37 am

Mr. Wells, I'd love to see Tyke run. Heard nothing but great things about him. His sire, Ranger Dan was the same way. I've heard a number of guys say that he didn't have enough foot but they were watching him run at 7 and 8 years old. Back in '96 and '97 I judged him in the Maritimes several times and he was astonishing- leading drives, taking checks and making all the turns when the pack overran. I watched him claim every bit of the line for over 100 yards down a dry gravel logging road when no other hound could lift scent. He was very clean with his mouth, except when a hound would reach way off a check and force the pack to hark up to him, he would give tongue while harking in. No harm in that I thought. I watched him take a track across a 20' wide shallow stream, claiming the line on a dry boulder in mid-stream while the rest of the pack could do nothing but splash around in the water. Never needed any excuses with him. He was the smartest hound I'd ever seen- ALWAYS knew where the line was. He simply made good dogs look bad. I didn't waste any time breeding to him. The best dog in my kennel today is a daughter of his. He was a GREAT hound and died far too young.

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:46 am

.. steve c thats a good scenario... and my best mutts i have now probably would have gone backwards aways on that track.. ok what if they went backwards 150 feet barking,,, turned around and went the right way and ran it .. i can live with dogs like that... what i cant live with is the dog that didnt detect any scent in that same situation... just went right on by... whats even worse is the dogs that i kicked that rabbit out and they run it a half circle and have lost it again.. like phil ive never seen a perfect one.. i think lack of nose is a much worse fault than cold trailing or a dog that back tracks a short ways.. coldtrailing and back tracking is not good.i sure dont want a dog that does a real lot of it.. it just seems that by culling those dogs we have less and less nose.. i hunt with foxhounds. same thing.. hunt coonhounds. same thing... hot nose dogs are everywhere, every breed.. cold nosed dogs are very rare.