cold trailing

[New York Hillbilly]

You know I've heard enough now! This is some stretch, a dog that cold trails is now also a trash runner, back tracker and stupid to boot. A dog who does not claim quickly does not have a lesser nose he is only SMART. Perhaps we should compare their SAT scores for goodness sake. The bitch I have that can smell when the others seemingly can not is as straight as the rest of the pack. That of course does not mean she is perfect and has not done some knot headed things in her 8 years. But thats ok because I have too in my 43 years! She is however the matriarch of my pack. When I run my girls they all know enough to listen to mamma. Because she has never let them down and when she opens they fall in and work like a PACK. The rabbit or hare is almost always and I do mean always jumped from its hidey hole and its Katy bar the door! The rabbit is brought to the gun and the whole thing starts again. Now don't get me wrong the other hounds can and do all jump and solo their own rabbit. And on good days we often have a couple going at the same time. But on a bad day she can seem to pull them out of thin air. She like my other hounds are all smart and well mannered. Although I admit she is tenacious and one time dug herslf through her kennel fence to join the pack in a run that was going on in our hay lot out back. She was at the time nursing week old pups and dripping milk all over the place when I caught her. You can imagine my surprise when I heard her voice joining in with the pack. I could not believe that she not only got out but had left her pups. When I got back to the kennel two of the pups were in the run. They must have been clinging to her when she took off to join her packmates. Does this make her stupid? Maybe, but she is obsessed when it comes to chasing rabbits and will run till she drops dead if you don't stop her. And for better or worse she has instilled these same qualities in thoses who have learned from her. She and two of the other girls got loose one day this past August while I was at work. My wife was afraid to call me at work. They ran in the heat from 10 am till 9pm when I got home. When I called them in they came across a swamp and corn field to me. When they got to me they collasped and I had to physically put them in the seat of the truck. They had no hair left on their muzzles, it was wore clean off. Their tails and under ears were bloody as were their tails. The next day I had to take two of the three to see Doc Link as their eyes were swollen and stuck shut. Look at what she had taught this crew was all I could think. Does this make her stupid? Maybe? But this stupid cold trailer will live with me and the rest of the pack till she dies. And on cold blustery days in January when other guys are eating a pizza they picked up on the way home. I'll be sharing rabbit stew with my cold trailing hound!

P.S.
To make matters worse I also have my male who is just as nuts when it comes to running, Rising Suns Blazer. Blazer is loves to run day or night and in the heat or snow. And while he is a madman when it comes to chasing rabbits, to his credit he is not an escape artist like his female counterparts. And even though he is an ARHA Bench champion and LP Field champion he has never been offered as a stud. I have bred him a couple of times to my bitches and my buddies bitch and the pups turned out great. He also has produced ( I believe) ARHA champions from breedings several years ago when owned by my good friend Paul Webb of Rising Suns Kennel in Ohio. I'll always be thankfull to Paul for selling to me Blazer, Mousie Blue, Mona Lisa, the corner stones of my pack. Yup they suit me just fine!

NYH

[tnbeagleman]

OKAY explain why on certain days one dog can carry the trail and others cannot or will not run at all. Ex: while hunting one day with five dogs a male i had jumped and ran 13 out of 17 rabbits and the other four dogs never made a sound and could not even find but one rabbit all day the other hunter I accidental jumped three If they went to a hard check the same male would pick it up and line it out. Yes he would occassionally bark a little quicker than i liked but could get up more rabbits then all the others put together now is that a fault ?I like a tight mouth dog and the places I run doesnot require a great nose so most of my dogs only bark on a hot trail but my experience has been that the dogs from up north are what I am usally seeing that is called cold nose , this may just be a freak of nature or are they breed to pick up a scent better. INTERESTING SUBJECT

[New York Hillbilly]

tnbeagleman,
I agree with you and you with I it seems. But as a fella that lives way up north I'm glad you said it and I did not. Fluke, nature or breeding it works up here and to me at least its no fault. By the way when you come up here and run with me and my faulty hounds bring the mouthy hound with you. He may end up staying here with his northern cousins!

NYH

[snowshoehareguide]

in my opinion cold trailing is only a fault if dog doesnt jump and run the rabbit . ive seen dogs that were happy to cold trail and didnt care if they ever jumped the rabbit. i dont want one like that. ill take all i can get that cold trail and jump the rabbit in a reasonable time. these dogs are usually the ones that can run when the others cant. in north country we get more tough running than good running . the guys that are telling you what a fault cold trailing is are the same guys that are breeding dogs that cant run a hare most the time. occasionally under certain conditions they can run without a mistake. ive seen a lot of beagles . a lot more that had not enough nose than i have that had too much . joe said only time snow gives his dogs fits if its crust. ive seen dogs that would run on crust as good as any other time. it takes a little more nose. how about if its 60 degrees or raining with snow on the ground. ive seen plenty that couldnt run, what if it got 30 below last nite and today its clear blue sky no wind and sunshining but the snows still squeaking when you walk on it. how about fluffy dry leaves and the wind blowing. chris guides hunter i guide hunters. if somebody is driving along ways,and spending money to go hunting they dont want to hear its too windy, too cold , too wet , its always too something here. the bad days outnumber the good days. i need a hound that can run everyday. the absolute worst fault a hound can have is not being able to run a hare today. ive seen way too many of them . i own a few of them now. most arent guiding hunters with their dogs but they still only have a limited time to hunt and cant always go on the good days. i dont want to start a big fight but i think that if beagle breeders dont wake up the beagle will become totally useless for hunting real rabbits outside the pen. i have heard from a lot of people all over the northeast that are looking for good snow dogs . like somebody said why should we even have a term snow dog . i agree with that . all dogs should run on snow. the fact that we are using a term like snow dog should be a hint that the beagle breed is in trouble. if more beagle breeders would put the effort in to produce snow dogs as they have to breed a dog to win ribbons chasing bunnies in a pen it might be easier to find a decent dog for hunting. i dont want to offend anybody . theres no dog that has more heart than a good beagle. nothing id rather do than hear a beagle or pack of them running a hare. pete

[New York Hillbilly]

Pete,
How about those days of squeaky snow! You know you know cold weather when you bring that up. Can't you just here it as you walk down the road with the hounds? I feel like the guy in the NASCAR ad that gets on the ground to smell the burned tire tracks. When I'm in the grocery store I sometimes open the frozen section door, stick my head in and take a deep cold breath just so I don't forget the feeling! What a cheap thrill! My hounds can't afford to be fair weather fans or they would never get to run. It is a fact that we in the Mohawk Valley get about the least sunlight of anyplace in the country. The weather is forever changing. Thus the reason the hounds up here are bred to be versatile. The hounds my buddies and I run may be able to do well in trials and some may not. But, they are true hunting dogs, meat hounds so to speak. And while some may find them a little less than polished and refined. Nobody who has spent the day shooting or shooting at the rabbits and hares they run can dispute they are the real deal.

Think Snow
NYH

[TomMN]

Where I am from a cold nosed dog is a good thing. We have a different term for dogs that trail without producing any game. Babeling, standing on their head, whatever. A cold nosed dog that can move a track good and jump rabbits is worth it's weight in gold on those bad days and like Pete said, there are more bad days than good ones. If you don't have a dog like that you will go home empty handed a lot here in Minnesota.
Hey NY Hillbilly, am I missing something? I thought snow was always squeaky except in early fall and late spring! (just kidding)

[Joe West !]

Chris: Only thinks it's old? A study of good solid hounds down with a cold trialer answers that question for us. When the cold trailer opens and the other hound checks on him his tail tells us if he can smell it or not. When he checks the scent his tail says "I smell it" but when he doesn't open and leaves it he says "it's old". Certainly a good hound will at times work up a scent but he does so silently until he knows he has the rabbit going. His tail is the way he communicates that he is working scent but it is not a viable line. Sometimes they will work the line up and some times they will determine it to be not workable and leave it.

The brain can't get enough scent if the nose isn't powerful enough to pick it up and relay it to the brain. It's possible to have an above average hound for intelligence with an average nose and vice versa. As I've said there is more then one cause for cold trailing. That's wht the cold trailer must be studied to determine what is causing it in that particular hound. Here's a kicker. A hound with above avcer4age intelligence but only an average nose with experiance can learn to work better with the nose he has and out perform other hounds with less intelligence and better noses.

I agree with you thayt you won't be happy with the hound who cannot run in winter conditions up here in the north country because our hunting season is mostly in the winter months. As New York Hillbilly knows deer season is already open in the northern zone here and the southern zone opens monday which means no hound running until Dec. but then our rabbit season runs till March. The majority of our rabbit hunting is done in Dec, Jan, Feb. cols and snow.

New York Hillbilly lack of intelligence is only one cause for cold trailing there are other causes as well. A study of the hounds can provide an answer as to why the hound cold trails.

tnbeagleman: Some hounds have better noses or are more experianced thewn others and this allows them to run when lesser hounds are incapable of doing so. Certainly there are cold trailers who can outperform hounds who have different faults but a fault is still a fault even if the hound outperforms other hounds one cannot say he is not faulty we must recognize a fault for what it is whether it be cold trialing or lack of nose. Tight mouth is also a fault by the way so if the hound is tight he is not giving enough voice to his progress.

Snowshoehare guide: You may be right there should be no reason to look for a "snow hound" just a good hound. But then again there should be no reason to look for a hound who cold trails as being the only ones who can run in snow either. Cold trailing and cold nosed might be two different things.

New York Hillbilly: I happen to run on the banks of the mohawk quite often. Not far from where it enters the Hudson.

[snowshoehareguide]

ive read that scientists have determined that all dogs have same ability to smell . thats like saying all people have same ability to sing. i think that cold nosed and cold trailing are different things. i agree that some hounds can learn to run in tough conditions . that intelligence has something to do with it. cold trailing is not a fault. if the dog trails that track up and jumps it what has he done wrong ? if another dog cant smell it he is the one with a fault . all dogs will wag their tail anytime they detect rabbit scent . this is not cold trailing . they are not moving any track at all. some dogs will cold trail without barking . i think thats what joe is talking about . i guess joe is saying its not a fault to cold trail as long as they dont bark. this seems like splitting hairs to me. i still say the biggest fault and most common one is the dog that cant run cause its tough going today. if anybody has any dogs that run most every time out keep them going dont let anybody tell you that a little cold trailing is a fault . if they go backwards a short ways and turn it around be proud of them . to me back tracking is only a fault when they go to a dead end and stay there. cold trailing is only a fault when they keep it up and dont jump anything . and i dont consider this cold trailing this is babbling. the dogs that cant run when its tough going are just babbling silently. ok im kidding a little . to put this another way is they bark so easy that they will open where they probably should just wag their tails. i have to admit i dont have a lot of tolerance for this because it can distract other dogs. hot nosed dogs do not back track they cant if they wanted too. if a dog can run almost every time you take him hunting he is a great dog . overlook a little of what some people are calling faults. if the dog can only run on a great day consider that a fault no matter how great he runs on those good days. breed the everyday rabbit hound the fact that he runs most everyday proves to me he is not faulty or his good points outweigh his faults. pete

[Novice]

I have to agree with Joe West here INTELIGENCE is the key to how well they run. If the dog doesn't have the brain power to interpret the signals that are coming from it's Nose than it doesn't realy matter what he or she is smeling. backtracking ? to manny people assume how a rabbit ran Unless I have a clear marked line and know that the rabbit in question didn't do a little back tracking himself than I don't question the dog. To this day the best dog I have owned had inteligence to use the instincts and tools that nature provided her with. When running on soft snow she would lookahead for a track then use her nose to check if indeed this was the rabbit she was chasing. on crust she would allmost slow to a walk if necessary at other times she would look like a blur and literaly act like she was trying to catch the rabbit. I think this was inteligence the later uusualy happened on windy days on late winter frozen ground /ice/snow but she allways managed to run the rabbit and NO SHE NEVER ONCE COLD TRAILED WHEN SHE BARKED THE RABBIT WAS MOVING. So I have to say inteligence everything else is secondary. Good hunting to everyone

[Joe West]

There is a difference between cold trailing and working up a line. Certainly any hound should be allowed to check a line and work it up if it's viable. A cold line is described as: The faint scent when minutes or hours old, according to scenting conditiopns.

Cold trailing is described as: Opening on old scnet ussually made the previous night or hours earlier.

The word ussually is important because a cold trail is subject to the conditions and a cold trailing hound will spend excessive time trying to work the line up or he will fail and never work it up.

[Chris]

Amen Pete!!!!!
Anyone who has ever toted a gun in pursuit of rabbit/hare in tough winter conditions would be foolish to disagree with anything that he said. That's truly the bottom line.

[Joe West]

Snowshoehareguide: I've seen other studies where the differences in scenting ability between the breeds was due to the difference in the number of olfactory glands from breed to breed.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. There is a difference between cold trailing and working up a line. That is why I posted the definitions of a cold line and a cold trailer. Working up a line silently is a far cry different then cold trailing. It is a fault to get hung up on an old line and waste time; its worse if they open while wasteing time. Although I've never seen one waste too much time on a line silently. That hound may exist but I've never seen a cold trailer who was silent.

The single best hunting hound I've ever seen in my life was not fault free. She was in fact too independant. No hound is fault free as none are perfect but this bitch was as close to perfection as I've ever seen. Faults come in degrees and some are worse at a fault then others. Cold trailing, even in a hound who is the closest to perfection as any ever born is still a fault. Depending on the severity of the fault the owner may or may not want to keep the hound but cold trailing will remain a fault even in the very best hound. If you folks had said "this is a very good hound but his/her fault is she cold trials" then we might be in agreement. But, you turn it around and say "cold trialing is not a fault because these other wise good hounds cold trial."

You say the biggest fault is the hound who can't run his rabbit. That isn't a fault. It is the RESULT of a fault. But I agree with you on that. The hound who is so faulty that he is prevented from accounting for his game is too faulty to make the grade.

Now here is where this splitting of hairs becomes really important. If we except that a fault is no longer a fault because this otherwise good hound has the fault then many will not worry about breeding two hounds with the same fault because it's no longer considered a fault. Thus strengthening and perpetuating the fault till one must admit it as a fault once again. Now, for those who don't breed they may not consider these things now; but later when the fault they overlook today gets worse they will eventually have to come to terms with it.

The difference you are seeing between the hound who cold trails but is able to account for his game under tough scenting conditions and the hound who does not cold trail but is not capable of accounting for his game when the cold trailer can is a matter of degree of faultyness. IN a nut shell the hound who can't account for his game is faulty in some other way, other then cold trailing. This does not mean the cold trailer is not faulty; it means the other hound is faultyer. BUT, both hounds are exhibiting faults.

Snow should make no difference to the hound. The most enjoyable hunting conditions there are is in the snow. The hunter can see farther and the rabbits stand out better in the snow, (except the hare) But even when running hare the hunter can see better when there is snow. What a terrible thing it would be if snow prevented us from hunting because the hounds could not scent in the snow. It's snowing now as I'm sitting here writing this and unfortunantly I have to work today but I've put in for tommorow off to run in the snow. It will be the last day of running until after the deer season in Dec. Monday starts the deer season and there will be too many nuts on the woods who will shoot a hound on sight due to their ignorance. I wouldn't even chance running the hounds in my own enclosure. But that's a different story.

Chris: That bitch who was the best I ever saw came from N.H.

[TomMN]

Joe, where did your definitions come from? I think we are all after the same thing, a hound that can bring rabbits or hare to the gun consistently regardless of the conditions. A dog that only runs well when conditions are perfect is not a good dog in anyones rule book. The biggest differences are due to where and when you do most of your hunting or running. Here in Minnesota you can't run cottontails most of the winter because they will not run in deep snow (they are like one of those hounds that only run good when conditions are perfect). I have several dogs that can run a hare in waist deep snow. It's not that hard to do except for the physical effort. Let it go 2 or 3 weeks with no fresh snow and temps well below 0 at night and very few hounds can keep a hare running very long. This is where the type of hounds Chris and Pete are looking for will stand out. Another point I wanted to bring up, almost every beagle I have owned learned right away to run tracks by sight in fresh snow, it's when they can't see those tracks for what ever reason that the better hounds will keep the rabbit going.

[swing]

I use to have a female that I thot was a genius at working up old bad tracks, she didnt stand on her head either doing it, I have seen her trail rabbits for along ways that other dogs could never even smell, I've seen dogs come in and check her and just go on, within a minute or two she would have jumped it and then the race was on with all the dogs, and to think I thot she was a genius, evidently she was the biggest idiot in the pack.
Boy i sure liked that idiot tho. lol
Back to the old saying run what you like, I just hate to think what she was doing was a fault as some think, anyone else know where I could get me a faulty hound like that again,I'd sure be interested.
Trent

[Chris]

Joe, I'll accept your definition of faults, but it's semantics really. Fact is A LOT (majority) of beagles that are doing well in trials today are bred to be hot nosed -- for whatever reason. At least that's the end result of their breeding. An otherwise flawless dog that can't smell enough to keep a rabbit going on an old snow in Jan. is 1,000 times more faulty than a cold-trailing backtracker that can account for most of his game. Field trials are promoting hounds that are this way, and I think that's one of the major problems of the breed today, because field trial champions get a lot more opportunities to breed than a gundog that nobody but the locals knows about.