Is it just me or is foot over rated?

[sgc]

Similar to that, I remember reading that Lew Madden had said something to the effect of - Don't talk to me about speed, it's line control that's important.

[Remmy]

Similar to that, I remember reading that Lew Madden had said something to the effect of - Don't talk to me about speed, it's line control that's important.

I bet old Lew didn't trial Little Pack...

[Ron Conroe]

It's a fast paced world we live in. Speed is everything, speed and money.

[Alabama John]

Shady Grove, Old man!!!LOL

The bottom line of thinking on how a Beagle is to run a rabbit goes back to how they were judged before all these NEW trial formats came along. The AKC beagles had one trial format and that was the BRACE trials.

Everyone on here should go to one of their trials and then they will see how being close on the line and claiming the check is supposed to be done by a Beagle.

We should all keep in mind that all our Beagles go back to that type of breeding to win in AKC and the champions in our dogs lines were winners under that Brace trials judging.

None of the other hunting breeds you mention have those trial standards, only Beagles.

The hunters posting on here wouldn't give a nickle for any of the champion dogs in their AKC dogs past if they could see them run back then.

[fulcount]

Shady Grove what you say is true from the 50's on up but you need to go back a little farther than that when brace trial dogs had to DRIVE a rabbit to be considered
Those are the dogs behind the dogs that became traditional brace
I honestly believe the brace people got to the point they wre getting rid
of the dogs that could push a rabbit and ran their culls in the trials
The brace beagle is certainly expected to struggle and make it look hard
to run a rabbit ergo the walkie Talkie

John O

[warddog]

I really hate it when some old guy gets on here and tells you about how long he's been running dogs and how much experience he has................So I'll try to not do that.
I'm 64 and having been running hounds for the past 50 years.Not just beagles but just about all game chaseable.I started with the beagles,had a 21 year love affair with the coon hounds and in-between hunted with a bear pack,cat hunted on snow,have run fox/coyote in the big pens,went to the woods with the world champion squirrel dog,corresponded for years with several lion hunters in Montana about their hounds and hunts and had more deer chases and treed more possum and porcupines than I could begin to remember!! Am I starting to sound like one of those old guys yet?
People talk about "foot" like it was the curse of beagling.I can tell from the comments that always arise when this subject comes up that folks feel that any hound that is considered"fast" is so full of every known fault that he can't possibly run a rabbit,keep it going or bring it around to the gun, ["can't keep it going for more than 10 minutes,stands around at losses,can't jump rabbits,can't make the turns,isn't accurate,cuts,slashes,etc."].PLEASE GENTLEMEN!
I LOVE FOOT! Doesn't mean I ignore all the others aspects of a beagle's ability to pursue a rabbit .But,how you're hounds run is a personal choice and I'm just NOT going to have slow dogs no matter what game I'm chasing.I'm just not.
I want hounds that run a track not just follow one.Only in beagle hounds do I hear all this talk about "foot" being a negative and so many attribute a multitude of faults to the hound that can get up on his game and drive it relentlessly.Think about it,the hounds that can do this would not be able to run like that if they were all as totally faulty as some believe.Only in beagling do we talk about "oh,he's too rough,he's too fast,he's running too much rabbit,he needs to slow down,he's blowing a hole in the ground,wish he was more conservative"etc.
Never heard any bear hunters say"wish they'd take longer putting that bear in the tree,they pushed him too fast,or a mid-winter cat hunter pray that it would take longer for ole Jack to bring that big tom out of the swamp so he could freeze longer on his stand,or a coonhunter say that he'd rather listen to some old potlicker trail up and down the creek all evening before he settles on a tree than have that hound that got struck,drove his game and had the meat in the tree.The fox hunters always talk about the two or three front runners that are carrying the pack all night and those tail enders go elsewhere.
Heck, even deer dogs better be able to crank it up in my mind.Yet I've seen beagles of the type that don't even push a deer any faster than this old man can run. Shoot,if a hound can't rock and roll when they're running a deer I sure want something with more "foot".Seems like it's only the beaglers that have this fast VS slow thing going on.
I just got back from spending 3 weeks running hare in Maine,New Hampshire and Vermont.I would say that myself and the three other guy's dogs all fall into that "fast"dog category.
Yet we had numerous 1-2 hour runs of continous pounding that some were virtually check free and had a couple of runs that went 2 1/2 hours sounding like one constant deer race.
Those guys all have GPS trackers and you can see on the screen as the hounds fade out of hearing at 800-1000 yards then come screaming back with the hare streaking by and hounds running flat out and not far behind it.
Bob Ferranti and I stood in the pouring rain in New Hampshire the last day I got to hunt and never moved and over the next 1 3/4 hours had probably the best run of my trip.The hare crossed there eight times before I shot him.Those five hounds ran that hare absolutely flat out the entire time running about as fast as a beagle can get through the woods and never checked up for more than 20-30 seconds.That one race on the GPS said they covered eight miles at about five miles an hour.That's picking em up and putting em down!!
Sure there are plenty of faulty"fast" dogs probably only equaled by the number of faulty "slow" dogs that can't or because of their breeding won't get up on their game.
Anyways,to say all that only to say that "ya,I like foot.In any kind of hound I run on any kind of game".
A good,fast hound that can can get up on it's game and push it relentlessly is a thing of beauty.And yes beauty is in the eye of the beer holder but they really do exist!!!

I hate to do that also Shady but facts is facts on age and experience. I agree with all you have stated, I also agree with Alabama John in that the terrain one hunts also plays a part in the mix AND what an individual's priorities are when following any type of hound. I've coon hunted with about everything a man could lay his eyes on and have seen many fast, tree grabbing slick tree artist as well as many ole slow, silent mouthed hounds tree numerous coon behind these fast super competitive hounds. I watched many beagles get out along the edge of the terrain we hunt in and burn the hair off a rabbits tail and then bog down in the super thick stuff as the slower steady dog(s) come and straighten it out. I think that ANY dog that consistently produces it's game is doing what it was bred to do and that is all I can ask of them. Do I have my preferences, YES as do all others but I cannot say one is better or worse than the other or whether it adds to the breed or not. I have watched numerous videos on the boards where folks knock a dog for being to slow, too fast, too close, too wide, too mouthy, too tight mouthed, etc but when I see them do what they were bred to do, I say, rabbit dog. I have NEVER seen ANY perfect hound as they are merely dogs not God and the FACT is that a dog is being judged by the likes or dislikes of the owner, not the sole quality of the dog. With all that being said my point is that I love a hound that hunts, finds, tracks and finishes the track so that I can harvest it without freezing to death in the process and the style this is accomplished is purely in the eye of the beholder. The only flash I have ever seen behind a hound is one from a camera picture being taken BUT I've seen many a good meat producing hounds and as many sorry ones regardless of the style.

[Newt]

I hate to do that also Shady but facts is facts on age and experience. I agree with all you have stated, I also agree with Alabama John in that the terrain one hunts also plays a part in the mix AND what an individual's priorities are when following any type of hound. I've coon hunted with about everything a man could lay his eyes on and have seen many fast, tree grabbing slick tree artist as well as many ole slow, silent mouthed hounds tree numerous coon behind these fast super competitive hounds. I watched many beagles get out along the edge of the terrain we hunt in and burn the hair off a rabbits tail and then bog down in the super thick stuff as the slower steady dog(s) come and straighten it out. I think that ANY dog that consistently produces it's game is doing what it was bred to do and that is all I can ask of them. Do I have my preferences, YES as do all others but I cannot say one is better or worse than the other or whether it adds to the breed or not. I have watched numerous videos on the boards where folks knock a dog for being to slow, too fast, too close, too wide, too mouthy, too tight mouthed, etc but when I see them do what they were bred to do, I say, rabbit dog. I have NEVER seen ANY perfect hound as they are merely dogs not God and the FACT is that a dog is being judged by the likes or dislikes of the owner, not the sole quality of the dog. With all that being said my point is that I love a hound that hunts, finds, tracks and finishes the track so that I can harvest it without freezing to death in the process and the style this is accomplished is purely in the eye of the beholder. The only flash I have ever seen behind a hound is one from a camera picture being taken BUT I've seen many a good meat producing hounds and as many sorry ones regardless of the style.

"With all that being said my point is that I love a hound that hunts, finds, tracks and finishes the track so that I can harvest it without freezing to death in the process and the style this is accomplished is purely in the eye of the beholder."
That says it all.

[rabbitearl]

If I could find the rabbits I will take any speed of dog but the walkie talkie. Rabbits make a big different.

[WELLS WOODS]

We, as humans, praise & award the best in every type of competition. Look at how we admire the best race car drivers, basketball, baseball & football players, music entertainers, etc... The same goes for our competition field trials. A good judge should be able to recognize the most talented hounds. We should be awarding the hounds that can get the job done the quickest. I'm not going into all the variables that go into running a rabbit the right way, but speed is good as long as the hound is progressing on the track. Good, proper checkwork is the most important aspect to running a cottontail in my opinion. Knowing where the point of loss is & working a check quickly with little wasted effort is key to putting pressure on a rabbit & takes brains & experience. However, no hound is perfect & we should be careful not to be too critical about minor mistakes unless they are continually disrupting progress. The AKC rulebook has everything laid out pretty plain in my opinion. I believe Lew Madden had quick running, competitive hounds with good line control based on what I've read.

[John Way]

A simple equation for pursuing speed. " Fast As Possible + Slow As Necessary = consistent successful hound............" If you place to much emphisis / strive for a fast hound, there will be many instances where a less than adequate performance is displayed. A hound that can not adjust to conditions , is gonna be a weak performer/Part time hound.
My Conclusion - a heart pounding chase is both desireable /exciting , but speed is over rated.

[WELLS WOODS]

Exactly right; fast as possible & slow as necessary. I remember judging IFC Stoneyhill's Tamarack years ago. She could out drive the whole pack when the terrain would yield good scent & would slow down to a walk when the rabbit went across sand & dirt where the scent was minimal & required more concentration & patience. A hound has to be able to drive hard when the scent is good & slow down if needed when scent is bad in order to keep the rabbit on the move. If they can't do both, they are like you said, a part time hound.