A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
sparky wrote:The idea of a good rabbit dog should be to run a rabbit as fast as possible with control of the line,kinda harder to shoot rabbits if the dogs keep breakin down all the time,Just because a dog is fast doesn't necessarily mean they are rough,if some of the rough running could be eliminated by shortening the checks up,that doesn't mean you would have to sacrifice speed. It would promote a fast dog that stays in close contact with the line,maybe eliminate some of the swinging,skirting,etc etc, I think it's a good idea,and could help better the breed as lock on rabbit/gun dogs.
I totally agree with sparky. There are ton of fast dogs out there, but to me a rabbit dog( which LP was based on) can push a track fast as their nose and brains will let them. Why reward a rough dog that say, skirts? You have a hound in there working his but off, picks up point of loss and a hound skirts by him and blows out. Did he do true hound work? No! Bout the same as a dog with no hunt, stands right by ya and when the pack hits, they go to it and try put on show.
That why in previous post I said things have evolved into what they are now. Everybody will always have diff opinions and run what it takes to win, but let's not forget the rabbit dog itself.
I've never seen a real run to catch dog that didn't run with very few checks or none at all.
Those that keep losing the rabbit gives it a chance to pull tricks but one running right behind it and closing fast doesn't have to do any straightening out as all the rabbit can to is ears back run. Watch a cur or fiest or mixed up dog run a rabbit and catch it, that is the same way a beagle that catches rabbits does it.
Tell me about your dog that keeps running down and actually catching rabbits and I'll bet it has few short or no checks at all.
What many call a run to catch dog is one running fast but wild and maybe heading off a pack running the rabbit and catching it that way or in many cases their run to catch dog is only fast on the track after it recovers a long check but never catches a rabbit, but seems like it wants to.
that is the way it should be. Ted Peercy had ARHA grand champions and we hunted them for rabbits with my ol rabbit dogs and they did great. Few checks, none for 15 seconds.
In trials the worse dogs you can run with, the better your dogs can look. In other words, have someone throw a dog down against you that does something that keeps causing checks and your dog recovering them is a good thing. Someone has to cause a 15 second check and the more the better if your dog is a great recoverer.
Put that good recoverer with a pack of good dogs and there will hardly be a check while hunting rabbits.
At some trials the dog that wins owner should go over to the owner of that dogs pack mate(s) that caused all those checks and thank him.
I like what you said about giving the cast a full hour. That's how it should be. Not all judges do. At the World when asked, the judge said he might call a time out or he might not while someone looked for their dog. I didn't mean that I didn't care if the hound hunted with me, as judge, or the cast, just that at the end of the hunt, I didn't worry if the guy can't get his dog. I just think there should be a point if one dog is holding up the hunt for say 10 minutes or more, that dog should be scratched. Or there should be a time out called.
Larry
LP R Ch Quick Strike Go Go Boots
LP R Ch Quick Strike Big Red
I don't like the time limit on the check at all. Score the check like they do on Akc or PP no time limit! But then you could get a whole bunch of score from that if every check is worth 25 points lol. Jus a thought. One thing I dislike about LP although its a very fun format.
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Kristina Cusimano
Cooz's Beagles
PP RCh Lone Pine Cooz's Swampin Sammi
doubleb wrote:maple that's my point they have divisions for smoother running hounds little pack aint it. Instead of changing little pack to be slower smoother dogs just run PP seems that would make more sense. I like fast ruff dogs so I run little pack. I would think most people running little pack like the same style hound or they would be running something else.
Just because the checks are shorter, doesn't mean the dogs are slower.
I agree that shorter checks don't mean slower dogs but it seems every time people start trying to make smoother running dogs and clean up the running the dogs start getting more conservative
Another thing that could be looked and improved upon is the 3 bark 3 minute rule on strike. Yes perfect conditions that's fine but how many of you guys out hunting on bad or cold days put your dogs on stop watch and then snap them up if they haven't jumped a rabbit in under 3 minutes. I know that you have to have some sort of time limit but I have yet to ever do it or see anybody else load there dogs up and move to another spot if no rabbit jumped within 3 minutes.
When I refer to my dogs as "running to catch" type I use that term only to differentiate them from those hounds that are content to only trail behind their game and don't drive with the intention of overtaking their game.
I certainly don't want people to misconstrue my meaning and think that my dogs are capable of regularly running their game down to a catch/kill.Sometimes when the conditions are right and the dogs are running high scent and there seems to be nothing the rabbit can do to get away from them they will catch one.Other times I've seen my dogs literally "lock-on" and run a cottontail to the point where he starts to lock-up or stiffen and they'll catch him.Is this a regular occurance? NO! But it does happen.
My hounds certainly don't run cur dog or fiest style [usually semi or silent trailers like a rat terrier hunting a barn loft ]or like many of the squirell dogs that never open until treed.Heck we used to have a little dustmop housedog that would go out in the field and catch rabbits frequently [more than any beagle I've owned ] but she never would make a bark.
"Run to catch" for me just means a hound that pursues his game with full intensity to overtake it/trying to catch it as opposed to the type of hound that is content to just smell his scent and trail along after it.
For over 20 years I followed tree hounds and there is a world of difference between a bear dog that will "run to catch" and pull hair then one that is content to follow the bear up one mountain and down the next all day.Same with a coon dog that will get up on his game hard and quick and make him climb as opposed to the hound that will trail up and down the creek all night where the coon fed.
Same goes for rabbit hounds too.Over the years I've had occasion to turn out with fellows that had conservative/U.B.G.F. type beagles.Within very short order you can figure out what is going on.My hounds were a couple of hunderd yards out in front and pulling away and those other style of hound wouldn't pick up their heads and get to the dogs that were closing on the rabbit.They were content to trail along smelling the scent line and either didn't have the physical ability or the mental desire to crank it up and try and close the distance on their game.
I'm not here to tell you which is better.But to me there is a definite difference in a hound that runs with the mental outlook and physical tools "running to catch" and the hounds that are content to trail a scent line and stayed glued to it no matter what.Heck ,blood hounds follow scent and stay on the line and close in the checks!!!! LOL
Oh ya,I think checks should be shorter.I always wondered about a system that rewarded a dog for the most checks they had????
Hey Alabama John
Thanks for the kind words.I hunted,pleasure ran and trialed with Ted Peercy for quite a few years as we lived pretty close to each other.Ted and I used to run a lot at night and I fondly remember many nights sitting out under the stars listening to the hounds run a rabbit.Ted's McBlack was a good one and he had several others of the better kind.
I remember Ted talking about his trip down to Ala. to hunt the swampers with you.Sounded like a good time.
Sad to say that Ted and I aren't in touch anymore.Never really knew what happened???? Still got the good memories though......
Take care John.
Ive read progressive pack brung up in this post a few times
Id stay away from combining any of pp rules
I went to one trial at boyd co ky once
I watched my dog dominate in the semi finals
And lost to a mouthy female
I watched the judge give the dog 3 checks in 10 feet of tracking!
That was my last pp hunt
Lil pack has issues as they all do but none of them have issues like pp
Jmo on the dealings with it
wildcatfan0309 wrote:Ive read progressive pack brung up in this post a few times
Id stay away from combining any of pp rules
I went to one trial at boyd co ky once
I watched my dog dominate in the semi finals
And lost to a mouthy female
I watched the judge give the dog 3 checks in 10 feet of tracking!
That was my last pp hunt
Lil pack has issues as they all do but none of them have issues like pp
Jmo on the dealings with it
I've seen that in all types of formats though, to me a check isn't ten feet of barking. Sounds to me the judge didn't know what he was looking at.
The last sentence is what I like to see made more clear. (Make forward progress). To me that means picking the track and driving it out of area to where all hounds are harking in,and it is diff that they are moving a track. I've seen some award checks for moving a very short distance, where it still could be considered the check area itself. Awarding a hound 4 checks in 1-2 min and not moving 50yds or so is not really rewarding the best hound. It's just racking pts.
There is a lot out there who do award checks the right way. It just all depends who judges cause they all do it a lil diff. Same as other formats, some like rough hounds some like cleaner running hounds. There always be lil quirks and loop holes in formats, but main thing to remeber is to have fun with it. It is a sport develope for houndsman/hounds-woman to bring there hounds and enjoy the fellowship of beagling, see old friends, and try to win. Lol!
