arha lp and oversized dogs

[Pine MT Beagle Runner]

Just curious. At what height would they no longer be considered a beagle. If I trialed, and the height standard was raised, could I bring a short walker and say it was a tall beagle?

It seems to me that is why the standard is set at 15". Just an observation. I'm not picking on anyone.


Chris Chandler

[mike crabtree]

Chris Chandler, Does being over 6'6'' make someone not human?

If you are going to run Pine Mt Beagles you are going to see some that are over 15''. Rufus breeds the strongest to the strongest. It is bound to happen.

Having said that it doesnt mean you should take it to a trial if it is over, but it is dang sure still a beagle.

[JUDE]

Chris Chandler, Does being over 6'6'' make someone not human?

If you are going to run Pine Mt Beagles you are going to see some that are over 15''. Rufus breeds the strongest to the strongest. It is bound to happen.

Having said that it doesnt mean you should take it to a trial if it is over, but it is dang sure still a beagle.

You tell him Mike When you push that 15inch line to make the very best , strongest hounds possible then it will happen

Buddy

[ohlinger.s]

just my opinion. I think that every dog should have to be officialy measured before it is allowed to compete in competitions. This is something that will never happen though b/c of $$$ issues in registries. The would just rather a big dog slip through the cracks and collect the owners entry fees until someone puts the stick down on the dog and it's too big on that day and try again and pay the entry on another day another hunt and another dollar for the registries. For all of you preachers who say "RULES ARE RULES ITS A RULE SO FOLLOW IT" if it was such an important rule why don't they enforce it before the dog is already entered into the competition stream??? obviously it's not that big of a rule. It's a $$ game my friends. Just like we like to try and slip our big dogs through the registries will allow it to happen b/c thats 10-20 bucks more on a specific day. Also why is the standard in Europe and Austrailia 16 inches for beagles and in the u.s it's 15 inches ??? hmm was'nt the breed developed in England????? they're standard says 16 inches. maybe somebody on the rules commitee's in these registries should put the crack down either way if it's 15 then enforce and don't let a big dog get all the way to the world and then get measured out b/c someone else is trying to eliminate the competition and play the rules to there advantage or maybe we should follow the TRUE standard of the 16 inch beagle, and don't come back with a where do we draw the line if we go to 16 inch then we'll go to 17 and 18 and so on and so forth. Thats just a comeback line. We obviously have some flaws that need to be addressed haha if someone would vote me for the president of the united states or at least just a.k.c and arha beagle depts i'll take care of these issues myself but until then i'll just let people poke fingers. and i'll be pokeing my fingers as well.

[DedRabbits]

We obviously have some flaws that need to be addressed haha if someone would vote me for the president of the united states or at least just a.k.c and arha beagle depts i'll take care of these issues myself but until then i'll just let people poke fingers. and i'll be pokeing my fingers as well.

Yeah, you're just the guy we need,lol. J/K

[tiffinis]

maybe somebody on the rules committee's in these registries should put the crack down either way if it's 15 then enforce and don't let a big dog get all the way to the world and then get measured out b/c someone else is trying to eliminate the competition and play the rules to there advantage

This was the part of the first question that I was waiting for someone to answer. I don't trial so technically I am not entitled to an opinion. But how does somebody get a dog that far only to be measured out?? If it is such an "issue" why not band together and get a standard set of official measurements done for competing, once done, is done. Then you wouldn't have to wonder at every event??

I also agree with the fact that the breed was originated in England and their standard is 16. So should ours be. Am I prejudiced towards the taller dogs? Yes, 2 of mine are over the 15 mark and one is questionable. Would I have them any other way? NOt on your life!! But then again, I am not trying to get them into a trial, they just fill the freezer for us.

[warddog]

The STANDARD is whatever the registry states it is as they are the ones backing the certification of the breed within THEIR registry. Makes no difference if it is 13", 15" or 6' 6" if that registry has that as their standard then they should NOT register ANY dog that exceeds that standard or they themselves are in violation of their own standards. As far as human being a human at any height well that would depend on a specific standard being set by the registry. I don't think the Almighty set a standard on human size, shape or color and that's why we are ALL supposed to be created equal. Now, that don't hold true for beagle registries because as someone stated there is $$$$ (money) behind not only the registries but those trying to campaign a dog to become a champion under that registries standards. Once a dog reaches a title it's worth and it's offsprings worth goes up where otherwise it's just another beagle without a title that are a dime a dozen. Anyone that wants to play in the game of field trials is like anyone wanting to play in any other game. There are specific rules to be followed but if you don't follow them you are penalized and if the penality is egregous enough you are disqualified period. If you competed in the sport of wrestling in the 140 pound weight class but weighted in at 145 you would be disqualified to compete in that class which is just the same with with trials. If you are over the 13" height you have to compete in the 15" class and if you exceed the 15 inches I'm of the opinion the dog doesn't meet that registries standard and the registration papers should be revoked. There either are or are not standards and if the registries board of directors don't want to enforce them for fear of losing the $$$$ (dollars) then this debate will go on forever as the dollars will rule in lieu of their standards.

[Alabama John]

For those that want to have their dog measure less, it is not hard to get a dog trained with an electric wire to hunker down when something is lowered on its back.
It is easy to lie about its age and get it permanently measured and registered at 8-10 months old before it grows up and say its grown.

I think how it measures depends a lot on who is the owner of the obviously oversized dog. Funny to see it standing much taller than others on the trophy winning bench. Dang if I wouldn't have my dog somewhere else when pictures were taken. What's the saying? Picture worth ..........!

[Pine MT Beagle Runner]

Mike Crabtree, JUDE,

Only a question and observation. Seriously, though, how tall can a beagle be and still be classified as a beagle?

I have the utmost respect for Rufus. I want every one to know that I run Pine Mt beagles. That is why I chose Pine MT Beagle Runner. If I should start trialing in the future, and my hounds measure over the 15" standard I will not trial them.

Many years ago, the ARHA rules committee met and decided on the 15" standard. People in general need to take their concerns to the committee and petition for changes if they want to run bigger hounds. Like many have said, maybe it is time for a change.

If no one is going to petition for this change, no one has the right to get on here and bellyache because their hounds get measured out. However, those who run within the rules have every right to complain when their hounds have to run with hounds that do not fit the standard.

Just think about it. This is how our country was founded. People who felt they were being treated unfairly got together and did something about it.
Maybe a new class for hounds over 15" needs to be started. There are more than enough people on this message board to initiate changes.

Again I was not picking on anyone, I wasn't trying to start a fight within a fight.

Chris Chandler

[wvduece]

ive stayed out of this all i can lol if 15 in is the rule then 15 in should be inforced my son n i use to race dirt track cars n we did real well they had rules n we had to go by them if we wanted to run at certain race tracks there is a old saying at the tracks ya aint cheating till ya get caught ive seen guys throw a real fit over getting caught cheating n blame it on everybody else i only protested one guy the whoe time we raced n i only did it that time because a guy protested my car i let them tech my intake i was good then i protested his heads n he wouldnt let them check them if i have a dog thats close to the 15 in cutoff before i go to any big expense like going to a world hunt or a national hunt im gonna know that my dog is legal before i drive 6or7 hours knowing that my dog might get measured out you guys know if its over 15 ya probally have talked about it ever since it got grown probally before it even got started so make shure your dog is 15 in before ya load them up unless ya wanna try to slip one through then its not cheating till ya get caught so if ya get caught dont whine n cry for days just take your race horses home n run him for pleasure or however ya wanna run him or get the rules changed to fit your dog for a few years then ya will probally start crying over your 14 1/2 in dog gotta run aganist those 16 1/2 in hounds have fun thats what its all about anyway n dont get too serious that takes all the fun out of it anyways jb

[ohlinger.s]

This is not the first that the height and measuring issues have ever come up people have always said what i just said and nothing has ever happened the rules are rules and they prbly won't change but my best arguement is the breed standard is honestly 16 inches who whas the yay who that decided to make it 15 inches in the united states i personaly would like to shake that persons hand for changeing the true standard. good job buddy. if i knew there was a petition that was suggesting the u.s standard should be 16 inches i would sign it and stand by it. I"m a fan of the breed and believe in field standards and conformation standards and the original breed standard is 16 inches period. thats my only argument with this post. I could make a registry and allow 18 inch beagles that still does'nt make it correct with the standard ukc arha and akc are all wrong on there measurement issues. case closed. the true breed standard is 16 inches. As long as the standard is 15 i'll breed and compete by that i would like to see our standards meet what the original standards on our breed meet.

[Chris Shoopman]

i think the rules that arah have right now are great, if anyone has proublys with the size of any hound all you haft to do is messure it, if it messures in then no big deal...if it messures out then leave it at home the next time....its not a big deal as a lot of people make it sound...

[DedRabbits]

That's all well and good Shawn, until somebody decides that maybe they can push a beagle through that's 16 and a half inches tall, and then we're right back where we started. If a person doesn't want to stay within the guidlines set by whatever registry they are a member of, then they should look elswhere. I guess I just don't see what the arguement is. Obviously AKC had a reason for the maximum height they wanted for a beagle. I don't know what the reasoning behind it is, but I doubt they'll change it. I've seen posts here and elsewhere debating the speed of hounds versus the height. The common consensus was that it didn't make too much difference, which was one of Mr. Vansickles arguements. So if it doesn't matter, why can't everyone stay within the rules and accept them as they are? If AKC or another registry decides they want a 16 inch maximum for beagles, then you can bet someone will try to put a dog that's taller than 16in. in competition.

[windy hollow]

It doesn't matter about what we think....IT IS A RULE. If you want it changed go to the next rules committee meetings and have the rule changed or else do not whine when someone upholds a RULE.

No different than any other rule you don't like.

I agree ! This past weekend Windy Hollow's Mr. Mooney was kicking arse and went to winners pack and measured 15 1/4 but that happens.

[TC]

the breed standard is honestly 16 inches who whas the yay who that decided to make it 15 inches in the united states

Actually the breed standard was writtin in the US and Adopted By the UK a few years later...
the 15" rule was added for breeding Purposes to establish a foundation that all people could follow to help improve the standard as it was all over the place until then NOW if you want to actually Follow the original Standard as Written there was only ONE class ANY dog measuring Under 13 inch would also be disqualified as the standard reads FROM 13" to 16" The NBC (National beagle Club) established the Standard as it is Written now just after thier Founding it has been revised twice over the years the last time in the 1970s BUT the 15" clause has always been there....

American English Beagle Club.
1884.

HEAD. The skull should be
moderately domed at the occiput,
with the cranium broad and full.
The ears set on low, long and fine
in texture, the forward or front
edge closely framed and inturned
to the cheek, rather broad and
round at the tips, with an almost
entire absence of erectile power at
their origin.



The eyes full and prominent,
rather wide apart, soft and lustrous
brown or hazel in color. The or-
bital processes well developed. The
expression gentle, subdued and
pleading. The muzzle of medium
length, squarely cut, the stop well
defined. The jaws should be level,
lips either free from or with mod-
erate flews. Nostrils large, moist
and open.

Defects- A flat skull, narrow
across the top of the head, absence
of bone. Ears short, set on too
high, or when the dog is excited,
rising above the line of the skull
at their points of origin, due to an
excess of erectile power. Ears
pointed at the tips, thick or boardy
in substance, or carried out from
cheek, showing a space between.
Eyes of a light or yellow color.
Muzzle long and snipy. Pig jaws
or the reverse, known as under
shot; lips showing deep, pendulous
flews.

Disqualifications - Eyes close to-
gether, small, beady and terrier
like.

NECK and THROAT. Neck
rising free and light from shoul-
ders, strong in substance, yet not
loaded, of medium length. The
throat clean and free from folds of
skin; a slight wrinkle below the an-
gle ot the jaw, however. may be
allowable.

Defect- A thick, short, cloddy
neck, carried on a line with the top
of the shoulder. Throat showing
dewlap and folds of skin to a de-
gree termed throatiness.

SHOULDERS and CHEST.
Shoulders somewhat declining,
muscular but not loaded, convey-
ing idea of freedom of action, with
lightness, activity and strength.
Chest moderately broad and full.



Defects- Upright shoulders and
a disproportionately wide chest.



BACK, LOINS and RIBS. Back
short, muscular and strong; loin
broad and slightly arched, and the
ribs well sprung, giving abundant
lung room.

Defects- A long or swayed back,
a flat, narrow loin, or a flat, con-
stricted rib.

FORE LEGS and FEET. Fore
legs straight with plenty of bone.
feet close, firm and either round or
pear like in form.

Defects- Out elbows. Knees
knuckled over or forward, or bent
backward, Feet open and spread-
ing.



HIPS, THlGHS, HIND LEGS
and FEET. Hips strongly mus-
cled, giving abundant propelling
power. Stifles strong and well let
Hocks firm, symmetrical
and moderately bent. Feet close
and firm.

Defects-Cow hocks and open
feet.



TAIL. The tail should be car-
ried gayly, well up and with me-
dium curve, rather short as com-
pared with size of the dog and
closed with a decided brush.

Defects-A long tail with a tea
pot curve.

Disqualifications- A thinly
haired, rattish tail with entire ab-
sence of brush.

COAT. Moderately coarse in
texture and of good length.

Disqualifications- A short, close
and nappy coat.

HEIGHT. The meaning of the
term "beagle," a word of Celtic
origin, and in old English "Begele"
is small, little. The dog was so
named from its dimunitive size.
Your committee therefore, for the
sake of consistency and that the
beagle shall be in fact what his
name implies, strongly recommend-
ed that the height line be sharply
drawn at fifteen inches, and that
all dogs exceeding that height shall
be disqualified as overgrown and
outside the pale of recognition.

COLOR. All hound colors are
admissible. Perhaps the most pop-
ular is black, white and tan. Next
in order is the lemon and white,
then blue and lemon and mottled,
then follow the solid colors, such
as black and tan, tan, lemon, fawn,
etc.

This arrangement is, of course,
arbitrary, the question being one
governed entirely by fancy.

The colors first named form the
most lively contrast and blend bet-
ter in the pack, the solid colors be
ing sombre and monotonous to the
eye.

It is not intended to give a point
value to color in the scale for judg-
ing; as before said. All true hound
colors being correct. The forego-
ing remarks upon the subject are
therefore simply suggestive.

GENERAL APPERARANCE. A
miniature foxhound, solid and big
for his inches, with the wear and
tear look of the dog that can last
in the chase and follow his quarry
to the death.

NOTE - Dogs possessing such
serious faults as are enumerated
under the headings of disqualifica-
tions are under the grave suspicion
of being of inpure blood.

Under the heading of defects,
objectionable features are indicat-
ed. Such departures from the
standard, not however, impugning
the purity of the breeding.

Scale of Points
Summary Value.

Skull ......................................5
Ears ....................................15
Eyes ....................................10
Muzzle, jaws and lips ............5

Value of head ....................35

Neck ......................................5
Shoulders and chest ...........10
Back and loins .....................15
Ribs .......................................5

Value of body ....................35

Fore legs and feet ..............10
Hips, thighs and hind legs ..10

Value of running gear .......20

Tail ........................................5
Coat ......................................5

Value of coat and stern .....10

Total points ....................100





here is some interesting reading For ya..

You Will Notice that there are Not 2 distinct beagles in the british or Forien Standards but just one 13” to 16”
Desirable minimum height at withers: 33 cms (13 ins). Desirable maximum height at withers: 40 cms (16 ins).
Not under 13” and not over 16”
So if the US were to adopt this standard then Would we not have to disqualify all those hounds under 13” ?



In 1890 the Beagle Club (England) was formed. THE BEAGLE STANDARD

Chapter three of the Beagle Chronology points out that the American
standard was written before the English standard.

In April, 1884, a sporting newspaper reported that the committee,
consisting of Dr L H Twaddell, General Richard Rowett, and Norman Elmore, had completed their assignment for the American-English Beagle Club and had drafted a standard and scale of points for the bench show enthusiasts.
The committee made the following report:

(There would be no such thing as a beagle field trial for another six years).


"Your committee appointed to draft a standard for the Beagle,very
respectfully report that they entered upon their duties with a full
realization of the difficulties and importance of the subject before them.

The necessity for a descriptive scale of points for this breed is very apparent. Bench show judges having no authorized type on which to base their decisions, differ widely in their estimates as to the breed makers of the race. At one show, dogs of harrier size and style win the highest recognition, at another, the smallest specimens are favored, diminutive size being seemingly the only passport to preferment, quality being overlooked or ignored.

Thus opinions clash, and breeders and fanciers hesitate to submit their dogs for exhibitions in the present see saw conditions of affairs.

With an accepted standard the judge will have a guide to lead him through the difficulties of his position, and the breeder, if a novice, will be enabled with its assistance to discard those animals that are deficient in quality, and recognize merit where it exists, thus elevating the status of his kennel.

With this preface, your committee respectfully submit the
accompanying standard and scale of points for the English beagle, the result of a careful and painstaking analysis.

The beagle standard committee presented the standard and scale of points
to the American-English Beagle Club. The document was printed in an April issue of the sporting newspaper and was accepted verbatim by the club.

Turpin reported, "This standard remained in force up to 1900 when it was revised by a committee of the National Beagle Club.

In mid June, 1884, in the same sporting newspaper, W H Ashburner
reported that the beaglers of England were considering the formation of a beagle club patterned after the club in America.

"I am pleased to say, I am informed by one of the leading beagle
breeders of England and also see it noted in The (London) Field, that
those interested in beagles are about forming a beagle club in England with the same objects for which the American English Beagle Club was formed and will, I understand, adopt the same standard as our club has done."

In 1888 the American-English Beagle Club applied for membership into the American Kennel Club and was admitted.
President Herman Schellhass informed the membership through an open letter printed by the sporting newspaper on September 13, 1888 of the AKC acceptance.




As a side bar to the history of the standard:

Twaddell, Rowett, and Elmore are given credit for developing the first American-English Beagle Club standard in 1884.

Rowett told the other two members of the committee that he was very much occupied with the breeding of thoroughbred horses. He told the other two members of the committee that he would go along with whatever they decided.

Twaddell seems to take credit for the majority of the work that led to the development of the standard. However, in 1883 Elmore wrote a letter to
Twaddell stating, "I am strongly in favor of having some recognized standard for beagle judging that shall be a guide to judges at bench shows." Elmore sent his personal beagle standard to Dr Twaddell who he "acknowledged to be one of the best beagle judges in this country." It was emphasized that the standard "does not refer to the basket or bench legged beagle."

Sorry So long Folks But just thought yall might be interested
Now lets just keep the Standard Where it is at and breed for that it has worked so far.
TC
(Reprinted here with Permission From Chuck Kitchell (Chardon Beagles) the beagle history)
Also thank to The NBC (National Beagle Club)
I have a lot more information if anybody Wants it from When i was the Club Historian for another beagle Club..