inbreeding ???

[ricky murphy]

we need a doctor r any of u replying to my topic inbreeding DR VET MED????? we have patch hound experts wolf experts a couple louisiana cajuns WE NEED A DOCTOR AND A DRINK PS I WAS THINKING ABOUT GET APAIR OF ZEBRAS I WANT TO BREED THEM SO THAT THE STRIPES RUN HORIZONTAL WOULD I NEED TO INBREED OR OUT CROSS

[mybeagles]

Rick, this isnt a medical review board....its a beagle chat board.....I think some add some good information, some make stuff up, and some should never post, but thats what makes it interesting......
You wil never be able to control the responses you get, just read what you like and disreguard the rest.......the additional responses are just good for a laugh.....

[ricky murphy]

Rick, this isnt a medical review board....its a beagle chat board.....I think some add some good information, some make stuff up, and some should never post, but thats what makes it interesting......
I take the good with the bad and gets lots of laughs, hope your able to do the same....

I UNDERSTAND I THOUGHT THE ZEBRA WOULD LIGHTEN THINGS UP WELL I GUESS THIS IS ONE POST ISHOULD HAVE NEVER DONE I ALREADY KNEW THAT ANY WAY I BRED MY BITCHES I WOULD BE TAKING A CHANCE I NARROWED IT DOWN TO STUD DOGS AVAIL TO ME AN THE STUD I LIKED THE BEST IT WAS THE BITCHES FATHER YET IVE LEARNED ALOT FROM THIS POSTING YET MOST OF IT WASNT ABOUT BREEDING BEAGLES AND INFO ABOUT BREEDING

[Bev]

Im not sure some of you are read up on the wolf pack! By the time the males would have reached Alpha male status, most, if not all of them would have been run off from the pack and created their own pack....

Actually, I'm fairly read up on wolf pack dynamics, canine psychology, and have gotten to witness much of it first-hand. Alphas are determined at birth, not upon physical or sexual maturity (which are 2 different things). At or just before birth, there is a rush hormone transfer from the dam to pups masculinize the males. Some get a little, some get a lot. The one who got the most MAY be the Alpha in that litter. Some litters produce no Alphas at all, just varying degrees of dominancy. Female puppies do not undergo a similar "feminization." Male wolves do not reach their emotional sexual maturity until somewhere between the ages of 2-1/2 to 3 years. (ever notice that's about the age you start having trouble kenneling littermate brothers together, even though they've been kenneled together all along - or they suddenly won't ride in the box with other males?)

It is true that there is only one Alpha per pack, and if the upstart is bigger and badder, the old one is usually killed. If the old man is still bigger or badder, he will either kill or run the younger one off once the young one starts exerting his dominance. The subdominant males are allowed to live within the pack. They, along with most of the females will go out on the hunts, and help raise any younguns in the pack. The idea is to make your pack bigger and better than your rival pack, not prune them down to a few females and one male.

There are varying degrees of dominance and subdominance within the wolf pack - in both males and females. (Just because a dog is more dominant than the ones around him, doesn't necessarily make him a true Alpha). Basically you have the Alphas, the Betas, the Subdominants, Omegas, and sometimes a Pack. A Pack is a wolf that is allowed to travel with the "pack", but is not an accepted member of the hierarchy. The Pack holds no rank, but will generally act as a sentry, staying on the fringes and issuing the warnings of rival packs, impending dangers, etc.. Sometimes they are allowed to watch over pups. Now and then a Pack is adopted into the hierarchy after a period of time, and they are generally brought in as an Omega (lowest ranking).

Then we have the difference between dominance and aggression, and the 7 different types of aggression... I could go on, but all this is sidetracking is making ricky nervous, lol.

[mybeagles]

Your original post is very misleading suggesting a continuous inbreeding when thats not how it works...
I agree with the age of maturity and the Alpha male process, however it seldom happens that a 2 1/2 - 3 year old alpha male just reaching maturity takes over the current Alpha male position.....they almost always are run off from the pack to start new, traveling several hundred miles to find unclaimed territory, here they attract "new" alpha females off of nearby packs.....as your probly aware, a similar process takes place with the females......It is definately not the norm for repeat generations of inbreeding, and under ideal situations it would be very diverse....Unfortunately with all the relocation and reintroducing of wolves into new or previously inhabited areas, wolves are force to inbreed and this will cause serious problems for survival. If you speak to the biologists involved in the process they will list this as one of the major concerns....Bev, thanks for the clarification.....most were probly unaware of this information!

With wolves its the best breeding the best". Not someone breeding a pedigree, excellent point.....

Another interesting fact is only one breeding male and one breeding female, I wonder if this might be natures way of ensuring inbreeding doesnt occur?????

[smithbros.1]

I am thinking about breeding my best dog to an ALPHA male ..... Anybody know who has one??? I thought one had a win down south last weekend, but he mesured out
I hear to get Horizontal stripes you need to have 9 crosses from one sire

[mybeagles]

Norwestr, I cant agree with your analogy....I believe ALL inbreeding is bad, and should never be done.....Linebreeding is questionable at best and in more instances than not, BAD. Some knowledgable breeders have had some success with it, but if they are honest will tell you they have had some big failures as well.....Dont hate me for objecting, I just feel very strong about it....

[S.R.Patch]

PS I WAS THINKING ABOUT GET APAIR OF ZEBRAS I WANT TO BREED THEM SO THAT THE STRIPES RUN HORIZONTAL WOULD I NEED TO INBREED OR OUT CROSS

Buy two that display the mutation and inbreed them...

It's the same with getting rid of the rear dewclaws, those that lacked them were bred together till they were lacking in all the get, cutting them off never did help...

[S.R.Patch]

Patch, inbreeding CAN lead to difficulties with the bitch.....If a genetic disposition for breeding difficulties exists, it would be exacerbated with double that genetic trait.....the female may have also inherited physical problems if she is a result of inbreeding....this would not be the norm, but certainly a possibility.....Just because physical abnormality isnt outwardly noticed doesnt mean it doesnt exist!

mybeagles,
You ignore the most important part of my post, "standard and selection".
I respect your opinion and your correct, with your degree of knowledge, you shouldn't line/inbreed...

[mybeagles]

Patch as stated in your above post you cant see many of the genetic faults, and certainly I dont claim to be able to see them......Maybe someday you can share with the science world how your experience has given you the gift of seeing recessive genetic faults, until then...You are correct, the beagling world will be safe from me inbreeding any O'le crosseyed's

Patch, I dont resent you or feel your a bad person for your breeding practices.....please respect the fact that I disagree and choose a different route......it all adds to the challenge of creating a better beagle, and if through your practices you manage to do that Ill be happy for you......dave

[blitzen4]

do a search for (of peas and pups) it is an interesting read if you are interested in breeding. Let me know what you think. Dave

[S.R.Patch]

Patch, inbreeding CAN lead to difficulties with the bitch.....If a genetic disposition for breeding difficulties exists, it would be exacerbated with double that genetic trait.....the female may have also inherited physical problems if she is a result of inbreeding....this would not be the norm, but certainly a possibility.....Just because physical abnormality isnt outwardly noticed doesnt mean it doesnt exist!

mybeagles,
You ignore the most important part of my post, "standard and selection".
I RESPECT YOUR OPINION and your correct, with your degree of knowledge, you shouldn't line/inbreed...

Again you fail to grasp my whole post...

Peas and Pups is a good one... [/b]

[NorWester]

Norwestr, I cant agree with your analogy....I believe ALL inbreeding is bad, and should never be done.....Linebreeding is questionable at best and in more instances than not, BAD. Some knowledgable breeders have had some success with it, but if they are honest will tell you they have had some big failures as well.....Dont hate me for objecting, I just feel very strong about it....

I don't hate you for objecting, disagreement is what makes these posts and threads interesting. That being said you're wrong, simple as that. Ive had extensive hands on experience breeding dogs over a fairly long period of time and have used every conceivable method or combo at my disposal. Inbreeding and linebreeding certainly played a part in my methods for selection as well as best to best with complete outcrossing. Each had its place and I would never be so naive or ignorant to discount one over the other. Again, regardless of breeding style its selecting the right dogs to use that is the key to successful breeding just like selecting the wrong ones are the root of the failures in breeding.

[mybeagles]

Patch, I do grasp your point, I just dont agree with it.....I have read peas and pups and enjoyed it....the author seems to liken inbreeding more to how alleles align than pedigree....but I understand what he is saying.We need to consider a BIG point the author brings out about the "knowledge of scientific facts involved in breeding" You cant tell me 1/1000 beaglers come remotely close to understanding the basics contained in that article, but yet blindly inbreed litter after litter......the author is also critical of inbreeding in ignorance, and blames it for some of the faults we struggle to correct....

As stated earlier, experienced breeders have had success linebreeding, obviously due to their experience and understanding of their "strain". and perhaps the "ART" involved....for every one, there must be 100 just messing up the beagle because they are constantly encouraged in chat rooms to "go ahead and try it".....Guys hoping for a mutation for only 1 heat a year and 2 pups in a litter "the Steve's of this world"......Fortunately God made his creation resistant enough to man that we cant completely muck it up.....

I will stand behind the vast scientific world that opposes inbreeding and let you break the ice into the wonders that inbreeding has for us!

See you guys at the trials!!

[S.R.Patch]

Patch, I do grasp your point, I just dont agree with it.....I have read peas and pups and enjoyed it....the author seems to liken inbreeding more to how alleles align than pedigree....

This was my point, "I RESPECT YOUR OPINION and your correct, with your degree of knowledge, you shouldn't line/inbreed...
Have a good evening...