"Good Breeders"

gus · Post by **gus** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:26 am

Windkist, since you mention it, the bitch that I bought with show breeding, not Lollipop, had to have a C-section. I was just stating facts about my experience with show bred hounds. There is a lot of bragging about form, stride , and proper gait of the AKC standard beagle. Yet no one has answered my question about entering show bred dogs in LP events. Since the hound is a marathon runner, I would think that endurance is the true test of how well a hound is put together, not trotting across the show room floor. The speed and style of running of the show bred dogs, that I have owned, indicates they could compete in LPH Trials. I was wondering if anyone has tested them and if not why not, if they are interested in raising a dual purpose hound.

Keystone Kid · Post by **Keystone Kid** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:31 am

gus, excellent point! Keep it up.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:17 am

Yet no one has answered my question about entering show bred dogs in LP events.

Yes I did!!

Actually it is more of a time factor than anything else.
As you would well know a guy just can't get a dog ready
for that kind of physical output overnight. So it would be
about like taking a year off from showing that dog to get it ready for
large pack.

Pay attention boy

Check TC's site, they do a lot of switching between show ring and field work with their beagles.
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/
"From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be"

tom

Beagle Huntsman · Post by **Beagle Huntsman** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:28 am

Today's LPH trials are such a mess that I'm afraid I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. They are basically dog races around an enclosure. Most of your TRUE rabbit hunters have left them.

I've been mixing show and field lines for 25 years. I've seen some show hounds that I thought lacked stamina, but I've also seen many that could go forever. I've got a little female right now that is all show breeding (Shaw's Chase/Echo Run x Daragoj bloodlines). She has endless hunt/search, and can carry a line with moderate speed and good control. She never quits. Crossing hounds like her with the right field lines can/have produce some amazing hounds.

Leah: If you decide again to add some field blood, contact me and I can help you.

gus · Post by **gus** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:52 am

Beagle Huntsmaman I agree with your assessment of LPH Trials as a means for testing rabbit hunting dogs. I mentioned them merely as a means for testing endurance. In my opinion if show champions exhibit, as has been stated numerous times, a more effcient movement then shouln't that show itself in endurance competition? If not we are being fed a crock.

I applaude your efforts to breed a good looking hound and one that has the endurace, hunting instincts, and the ability to keep the rabbit tracks between its legs.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:16 am

Beagle Huntsmaman I agree with your assessment of LPH Trials as a means for testing rabbit hunting dogs. I mentioned them merely as a means for testing endurance. In my opinion if show champions exhibit, as has been stated numerous times, a more effcient movement then shouln't that show itself in endurance competition? If not we are being fed a crock.

As I stated earlier in this thread, endurance is by far more a function of conditioning than it is one of breeding.

Even M. Jorden would never be able to run the basketball court if all he did was sit on a couch.

Take the best rabbit hound you have and let it lay around the house for six months and then see how long it is able to run.

Where the difference will be is that the dog with proper structure will be able to be kept in proper physical condition with fewer problems (injuries, etc)

Speed is a completly different thing and is a function of breeding rather than conditioning.

tom

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:33 am

gus wrote:Windkist, since you mention it, the bitch that I bought with show breeding, not Lollipop, had to have a C-section. I was just stating facts about my experience with show bred hounds. There is a lot of bragging about form, stride , and proper gait of the AKC standard beagle. Yet no one has answered my question about entering show bred dogs in LP events. Since the hound is a marathon runner, I would think that endurance is the true test of how well a hound is put together, not trotting across the show room floor. The speed and style of running of the show bred dogs, that I have owned, indicates they could compete in LPH Trials. I was wondering if anyone has tested them and if not why not, if they are interested in raising a dual purpose hound.

We are definately interested in Form and function. When I evaluate my puppies I am certainly aware of how they use themselves when moving across my yard. I want a dog to move effortlessly not one that stumbles or paces etc. I don't think I ever implied that show bred hounds are better movers than field bred hounds. There are good and bad in both groups.

Leah

Windkist · Post by **Windkist** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:35 am

blunder wrote:
Beagle Huntsmaman I agree with your assessment of LPH Trials as a means for testing rabbit hunting dogs. I mentioned them merely as a means for testing endurance. In my opinion if show champions exhibit, as has been stated numerous times, a more effcient movement then shouln't that show itself in endurance competition? If not we are being fed a crock.
As I stated earlier in this thread, endurance is by far more a function of conditioning than it is one of breeding.

Even M. Jorden would never be able to run the basketball court if all he did was sit on a couch.

Take the best rabbit hound you have and let it lay around the house for six months and then see how long it is able to run.

Where the difference will be is that the dog with proper structure will be able to be kept in proper physical condition with fewer problems (injuries, etc)

Speed is a completly different thing and is a function of breeding rather than conditioning.

tom

And lets not forget "Drive" A hound must have drive and the will to do what he is bred for. All the conditioning in the world can't fix that if its broken ;-)

Leah

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:22 am

Lots of good points have been made on this thread. I run mostly hare. Our average day of hare hunting takes place on about a foot or two of old, hard, crusty snow. Not many dogs can run on this stuff day after day without getting sore feet and legs. Even the so called "hare dogs" do not have the right conformation for hare hunting! They do fine running in a pen in the summer time but they can't take much of the real thing. I am talking in general, I am sure there are many exceptions.

I have not seen any SPO dogs (not counting Midwest SPO which are completely different from the other SPO dogs) that have good enough conformation to hunt on snow day after day.

I have used dogs with show bloodlines and on average they hold up much better to this kind of hunting.

One thing that has been overlooked by many of you is that in UKC a dog must be entered in the hunt or have placed in a hunt before it can be entered in the show. The dogs that are winning in the bigger UKC shows are not as blocky as the AKC show dogs. Most of them are built for speed and a good share of them can make a rabbit run for his life!

A dog with poor conformation has to work a lot harder to run that a dog with good conformation. Conditioning is important but it can't overcome bad conformation.

TC · Post by TC » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:51 am

Ok We Are gettin a little off topic now aint we LOL
Keystone started this mewss By Stating that 95% of the beagle Breeders Were BAD

Most breeders (95%+) aren’t knowledgeable of the traits and bad habits they’re passing on in their breeding program

AGAIN I ASK Where do you get these Numbers????
How did you Arrive at this???

I'm simply saying that to be "a good breeder" you have to love all of it: rabbit hunting, field trailing, and putting good beagles in good gundog homes. If you don't, “you as a breeders” and “your breeding program” are lacking a very important part of what is considered to be a “reputable breeder”.

Do you have the NADS to back up this statement??????? WITH FACTS
Or are you just pushin Buttons cause your bored???
Maybe you could list YOUR ACOMPLISHMENTS!!!
WHAT have YOU done to help the breed?
Where do YOU fall in this catagory?
Come on Keystone We are Waiting!!!

Keystone Kid · Post by **Keystone Kid** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:11 pm

TC,

I've previously stated most my past experiences in Beaglin. This is where I've come up with my figures. Reading beagle and dog magazines, judging field trials, competing in ARHA, UKC & AKC trials, going to AKC shows off and on for 20 years.

I graduated from college in 1984 with degrees in Psychology & Criminal Law. In 1984 I went into the military police as an officer since I had my basic training completed in the summer of 1982, and my advanced training completed in 1983. For over 5 years I trained many forms of dogs in the military. Three of the 5 years I was an instructor, and my last 2.5 years in the military police I was a 1st Lt, and was put in charge of the K-9 training programs on 12 military basis in the USA, & 4 overseas in Europe. The military sent me to Michigan State University to take animal behaviorist classes pertaining to mostly dogs in 1986, and this I enjoyed and benefited from immensely. I was involved with rescue and recovery efforts in the Mexico City earthquake many years ago. I also was involved in rescue and recover efforts from September 15th to September 22nd 2001. I’m sure you know what to place prior to those dates.

To keep this as short as possible, I have trained for myself and others, birddogs, retrievers, beagles, and many breeds (over 15 different breeds) for law-enforcement purposes in the last 26 years. Every breed and format I ran/competed in I finished/put titles on at least one or more dogs. Over 10 beagles that I’ve raised out of my original bloodline finished in the field. I currently own dogs in Indiana, Pennsylvania, & Wisconsin that are being evaluated. But I am not trying to promote field trials in any way as an absolute way to evaluate beagles. You have to know what is required as a complete gundog, and know how to judge conformation in the breed.

Being involved with dog politics/K-9 legislation at the local and state levels was what sparked me to start this post. The 95% & 5% was my own personal speculation in “the breeder world pertaining to beagles”. But from what I’ve found out from being involved in all the organization's pertaining to dogs, its not just directed to beagle breeders. But to stay on-topic I wish to just keep it to beagles.

First of all beagles were originally designed to hunt. From my knowledge the UBGF is the only gundog organization that promotes both show and field competitions. Dogs vary in speed from north to south, as well as judges prefer certain running styles. As far as a beagle being a “jumpdog”, and being “biddable/trackable” that’s mostly left up to the dog owners. Field trials in combination with shows can’t do it all. It would take way to much time to complete a trial. That’s were studying bloodlines comes into effect in being a good breeder. There are very few bloodlines out there that consistently produce good jumpdogs. Please don’t confuse my use of the word jumpdog and a beagle that hunt’s as being one in the same, because they’re not.

A dog that covers a lot of ground in a birddog style of hunting, but yet avoids the heaviest cover (thick briers) is only hunting. He doesn’t deserve to be called a “jumpdog”.

The AKC records show that the beagle is one of the top 5 most popular breeds in this country. From being involve in K-9 legislation, animal shelter records show that beagles are one of the highest pure breed breeds turned in. So again I say, out of respect for the breed of the beagle and being a law abiding dog owner, let's think and study harder before we breed.

This reply post was quite time consuming to put together. So it might be a while before I can respond further.

TC · Post by TC » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:15 pm

Being involved with dog politics/K-9 legislation at the local and state levels was what sparked me to start this post. The 95% & 5% was my own personal speculation in “the breeder world pertaining to beagles”. But from what I’ve found out from being involved in all the organization's pertaining to dogs, its not just directed to beagle breeders. But to stay on-topic I wish to just keep it to beagles.

Thats what I was asking For and I thank you for the information.
A lot of this could have been avoided If you had simply stated in your Original post that IN YOUR OPINION the numbers are such and such and then Stated your Qualifications For that OPINION

YOU are Qualified to make such a statement But then again it is just one mans Opinion wich Difers from my own.
And I dont feel that any amount of degrees makes one person better qualified than another.
I will agree that a Lot of dogs are getting bred by a unqualified amount of breeders just looking to make a name for themselves or to sell pups
to pump up thier Ego and such.

I do feel though that for the most part the guys and gals that visit and post regularly on these boards do more for the breed than against it!!!

Education and open Disscusion helps, If more were to look at the Breeding more from the betterment than the buck we would all be better off.
The main thing that we all need to look at and remember here is that we all have an Obligation to be the best stewards of our breed and I do feel that this is something that you are trying to accomplish.
AND sometimes we all need a good Argument or lively disscusion to get our Views out there! We all also need to view this as a learning experience and look at all the opinions with an open mind.
And with the intent that we can All learn.

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:08 pm

I have a 5 yr old bitch that has show breeding. I have trialed her LPH and Show at the same time. She has little patience, nose not the greatest but really smart. She had more stamina/endurance than many of the field dogs because I ran her daily for short runs and once or twice a week for long runs. She never had foot problems. She disliked being handled by judges after the vaccine reactions.

She developed allergic reactions to vaccines so she was removed from field and show and spayed. That is what I do as a reputable beagle owner. If my dog is not living up to the standard- show or field, spaying is the answer.

I educate every chance I get about beagles. People think they are easy when they see how my dogs handle. I always point out the drawbacks to beagles and their inherited traits- STUBBORN. Also the many hours of training I have put into my dogs.

So even though I am not an active breeder, I am an active advocate of responsible beagle ownership.

Carolyn

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:23 pm

Keystone Kid,
Well, well, well..............quite a list of accomplishments and credentials.

I will say one thing. I don't know about beagles but you sure got a way of getting "beaglers" trained. You pop in a few treats here and there, go run your hounds and come back to sit amused with wathching "them" run!

Funny stuff indeed!

Must have been the psych stuff you took in school!

Peace,
NYH

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:41 pm

I do feel though that for the most part the guys and gals that visit and post regularly on these boards do more for the breed than against it!!!

I do feel that quite often we come off like a preacher preaching to his choir. For the most part the "problem breeders" are the ones we never see or hear from. I would venture to say that most here are very qualified, otherwise they wouldn't be on here.

Funny,,, my wife has degrees in Psychology & Criminal Justice

tom