inbreeding
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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razorback
inbreeding
When inbreeding do you just use brother to sister or is any relation o.k. son to mother--- dad to daughter
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Guest
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bobby brewster
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2002 5:50 am
- Location: hartsville tenn
- Contact:
INBREEDING
WHAT ABOUT GRANDFATHER TO GRANDDAUGHTER
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James Carman
inbreeding
I have bred half brother to half sister with good results. I have stayed away from full brother-sister matings as this is a close as one can breed. I have reservations about limiting the gene pool this much. I made one mother-son cross. This was a very poor litter. Crooked tails, poorly developed immune systems, pups that would not prosper on any kind of feed came from this litter. I have never bred this way again. All beagles are inbred to some degree since only a limited number of English bred Beagles were originally brought into this country to found the American Beagle Breed. Further inbreeding within a line must be done very carefully.
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
in breeding
i think james carman gave you some good advice. ive read alot about inbreeding and line breeding i have done a lot of line breeding , a little in breeding , i bred two littermates and pups were small. good dogs though. i didnt breed any of them again. i dont think that what relatives you use is as important as the dogs you breed, would you consider breeding these dogs if not related? from what ive read about in breeding is you wont get anything that isnt already in gene pool. it can be good and bad . its not for everybody because you need to be prepared to cull the dogs that show faults. this is how you eliminate thebad genes causing faults . the dogs are carrying these bad genes that show up as faults . ill give you my very unscientific way of breeding dogs . i call it looking at pedigrees sideways. do you know of a litter of dogs where the whole litter turned out good. to me this is a succesful mating. one superstar out of a litter of duds is not. what happens the most is these superstars are bred heavily and same thing happens one great dog and a bunch of duds. i believe that if you breed to any dog in a good litter you improve your odds . now if you can line breed dogs out of good litters this is your best chance of producing good pups. its slow steady progress . and the hardest thing is finding the right dogs to start with. do you know any breeders producing nothing but great dogs .? i dont mean claiming to do it . its not like mixing paint. nobody i know of has it all figured out. you have as much chance as the next guy and i dont want to discourage anybody . if you produce alitter and a high percentage are as good as the parents you are doing a great job. puppies are cute. just look at all dogs you are considering very hard. in twenty + years ive bred dogs the most important thing ive learned is that you need to look at as many dogs as you can find that are littermates to the dogs you are thinking about breeding. this is best indication of what pups will be . if they are related this will increase your odds. theres all kinds of huge books written about it , a ton of experts. and still the best breeders produce a few good dogs and the worst breeders do too. the only difference is best breeders produce a higher percentage. hey did you ever think of all the diferent kinds of dogs out there . all bred from wolves by humans. in that time wolves and humans havent changed much. so it does work it just takes some time. im glad i dont have to start with a wolf and come up with a good rabbit hound in my lifetime. pete
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Dan Lefgren
Serious breeders have always used back crosses (inbreeding) not only to enhance the postives in the offspring but to identify undesireable characteristics (genetic health problems, soundness etc,) in thier breeding stock. When Mr. Carman blamed his problems on the inbreeding, he made the decesion to not do them again. The correct choice is to remove the hounds form the breeding program, not just do outcrosses which hide the problems and pass it on through the generations to other beaglers. Such well known beglers as Hiram Card of Elora Beagles (Bluecaps), George Nix of Pearson Creek, etc. have all used inbreeding as the quickest and most eficient way to prove their breeding stock foundatin was healthey and sound.They also used it to enhance the desireable characteristics they wanted. If you inbreed and the litter has all sorts of problems then you need differnet breeding stock. Only the un-ethical continue with the same stock and pass the problems on to others. Good breeders improve the breed by removing the stock from the gene pool, not by doing outcrosses that hide the problems and pass it on to others. Father-daughter, mother-son breedings are very very slightly tighter inbreedings than sib to sib. At least mathmatically, they are when Coffecients of Inbreeding are calculated. Of course breeding is not quite so simple as just inbreeding or line breeding. Mother nature can always suprise us when doing an outcross with a little (sic) principle called "the random assorment of genes. In other words an outcross on a pedigree, (at least geneically) could be an inbreeding for certain characteristics even though the pedigree does not show it. Until full DNA panels can be compared and all the genes identified we will not know. For the moment adn for those of us with limited monetary resources tehn the tools of inbreeding, very tight line breedings etc. are our best tools to prove and improve our own kennels.
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Gill
Inbreeding
For years I have been lucky enough to be on a 265 acre farm.
Since I was 14 years old after my father and his father raising good running hounds- I only began to understand good line-breeding.
We liked to keep entire litters for years to see what the pups were doing and the one's we didn't keep We kept in touch with most owners. ANd they too have sent a foot high of compliments in paper and pictures full of game.
If you or no-one see's first hand whats behind a dog- Then they won't know what the most will turn out like. It is almost impossible for one person to keep as many as 80 hounds and give them proper training alone. But, with friends your reproduction can be more monitered.
When every dog you favor for hunting is bred to cousins of your other favorite related hounds the closer you are to lacking a guessing game of what may show up.
If your willing to keep litters of your Grands and breed them to litters from his sisters pups -AS well related as in Uncle to grands of another incredable hound Related- You'll still be getting closer consistencie without bottle-necking too soon your breeding . In other words to close too soon can lead to disaster! Yet after years of monitering related hounds yet cousins, great grandpa bred to gran-daughter- then bred to a pure bred from AGAIN YOUR FAVORITE hunting dogs- You will have NO choice but to see more consistencie in the abillitie's of your own developed well thought out-TO YOUR taste hounds.
No-one could figure out how this can be done because there are so many factors to consider-Hunt, mouth, drive, accountabillitie, trainable, etc etc. But, When you simply think of it this way- Say take a bird canary- you want an orange from an orange bird. You may get a yellow why cause you didn't know what was behind both birds in the simple orange factor. Dogs for Hunting, what there looking like after you pick your all day hard chore really best hounds are getting more consistent._ If thats all you let in to the best of your abillitie. Thus improving confirmation as the all day hunt and stamina alone will show this as it takes a powerful dog to set you up with something you can run till his feet are burning.
How can you find out if any dog can be great? You need to watch him HUNT! more than once and compair him or her to the other relatives- Then it starts getting easy when you see they areNOT brother and sister yet they are related through many generations of the same dogs and kind of dogs yet bred in another order.
Your consistencie will RISE! I have proven that and explained this many times. It takes years since were concerned with much more than simply coller of a dog but how good it performs will depend on what you know is good about what you let in. Gradfather to grandaughter is fine. No problems-- Now in the gene pool to see if your years of work has been proper selection an inbreeding will tell- WHY? becouse you'll get three times the fault with three times the good as well- BUT- if you choose you related breedings by seeing all your breeding hounds work and know how good they are-And they were as good as any you have had working. Your inbreeding will still show you you did it right cause you still will get good hounds cause you choose the better qualities more than the faults.
You inbreed right away- and you can come up real lame! Do it right and take years to look over what your breeding close but not too close hounds RELATED FAVORITES PROVEN for years and you'll understand.
When you get more right some will hate you for it. cause they haven't a clue of this and how it works and they hate to be out done in anything ever. Don't worry about them. do it for you and your dogs. NO- brother sister breeding. Its wrong. yes, a few may turn out but I have found not as many hounds where right even mentally. Breeding is a art. And you can't learn this art over night or alway's from books- It takes a ton of field time seeing what you need to let come into your related hounds in proper order. Breeding pure is GREAT!
One more thing- Hybrid Viger- after years of careful selection One out-cross can up your odds of seeing highly spirited pups with energy to burn. yet- again- your taking a chance that your out-cross was not as monitered as you would have done for his breeding by seeing all his relatives do the WORK. so your back to the drawing question so keep the litter and see what you did. if you can't than you couldn't do it the way I've done for many years and its hard to say wether you made the right choice.
Trying to breed too close to soon will get you into what they call bottlenecking Your so close you have to go outside again! then the guessing of whats going to happen in the future is Back!!! (YOU NEEDED TO OUTCROSS cause your dogs are too close! too soon.
A real good breeder thats real consistent in the way I have had to explain is very, very rare. They can't help it they don't have the energy or the available cash or space to see there results so you buy one.(AND HOPE) Good luck to all that try to make more than orange feathers on birds and pick up on all we want in our hounds cause it takes many many years to make such a hound.(Not a simple book but leg time of your own) Then when you do all that time and work SOme guy changes the blood name or outcrosses to??? and the guess is starting all over again of how many will be good. More can turn out cause of half of the foundation was well planned yet one out-cross and you loose fifty percent. and the lines eventually extict along with all that time money, thought,& field trips and all. When you do out-cross choose with thought and look at the dog run! can your favorite blow him away yet he's spoken about more- THEN DON"T BREED HIM> If you know what you see- and see what you learn and know your so much better off.
To take a well established hard chore line and extict it becouse you want your name on it is a SIN! especially when you were not the one doing the hard work for over 40 years. thats why pearson creeks gone, warfeild Red, and many many other well thought out well bredd true hunting dogs that were ready to light your rabbits up for many generations behind him. cause someone took the time to over see what he needs and did the work. Gill Davis BOLDSTROKE KENNELS- 1740-869-3738. breeding a good hunting hound without buying from dog traders or guess work. Im never in the market for a great one I breed a couple now and then for some good folks and becouse I didn't know ther intentions- some bad.
Was all this time and work worth it? to me- yes when I hunt- but, at other times NO- I learned people will destroy hard work without thinking. FAST! THey go on mere hersay not watching over the results or time spent making them correctly. And then if you see to it things are right for so many years than cause of an improper out-cross was made guess why one out of five is bad-They wern't sure about all the background of the out-cross. who's blamed. why you of corse!
If you do it the way I see to it. I guarentee it works cause what else can they pull up? In the pool of all we want cause thats all we let in. Even if they take after the well known hard hunted over GREAT great great great grandpa or grandma or aunt, cousins or sisters.
Now this my friends is a real answer to your question. You ever heard the statement when someone's selling a pup well your luckky if half turn out real good! I never need to think that way I've seen too many turn out real good. but, again I have a plan. always. and an art.
Since I was 14 years old after my father and his father raising good running hounds- I only began to understand good line-breeding.
We liked to keep entire litters for years to see what the pups were doing and the one's we didn't keep We kept in touch with most owners. ANd they too have sent a foot high of compliments in paper and pictures full of game.
If you or no-one see's first hand whats behind a dog- Then they won't know what the most will turn out like. It is almost impossible for one person to keep as many as 80 hounds and give them proper training alone. But, with friends your reproduction can be more monitered.
When every dog you favor for hunting is bred to cousins of your other favorite related hounds the closer you are to lacking a guessing game of what may show up.
If your willing to keep litters of your Grands and breed them to litters from his sisters pups -AS well related as in Uncle to grands of another incredable hound Related- You'll still be getting closer consistencie without bottle-necking too soon your breeding . In other words to close too soon can lead to disaster! Yet after years of monitering related hounds yet cousins, great grandpa bred to gran-daughter- then bred to a pure bred from AGAIN YOUR FAVORITE hunting dogs- You will have NO choice but to see more consistencie in the abillitie's of your own developed well thought out-TO YOUR taste hounds.
No-one could figure out how this can be done because there are so many factors to consider-Hunt, mouth, drive, accountabillitie, trainable, etc etc. But, When you simply think of it this way- Say take a bird canary- you want an orange from an orange bird. You may get a yellow why cause you didn't know what was behind both birds in the simple orange factor. Dogs for Hunting, what there looking like after you pick your all day hard chore really best hounds are getting more consistent._ If thats all you let in to the best of your abillitie. Thus improving confirmation as the all day hunt and stamina alone will show this as it takes a powerful dog to set you up with something you can run till his feet are burning.
How can you find out if any dog can be great? You need to watch him HUNT! more than once and compair him or her to the other relatives- Then it starts getting easy when you see they areNOT brother and sister yet they are related through many generations of the same dogs and kind of dogs yet bred in another order.
Your consistencie will RISE! I have proven that and explained this many times. It takes years since were concerned with much more than simply coller of a dog but how good it performs will depend on what you know is good about what you let in. Gradfather to grandaughter is fine. No problems-- Now in the gene pool to see if your years of work has been proper selection an inbreeding will tell- WHY? becouse you'll get three times the fault with three times the good as well- BUT- if you choose you related breedings by seeing all your breeding hounds work and know how good they are-And they were as good as any you have had working. Your inbreeding will still show you you did it right cause you still will get good hounds cause you choose the better qualities more than the faults.
You inbreed right away- and you can come up real lame! Do it right and take years to look over what your breeding close but not too close hounds RELATED FAVORITES PROVEN for years and you'll understand.
When you get more right some will hate you for it. cause they haven't a clue of this and how it works and they hate to be out done in anything ever. Don't worry about them. do it for you and your dogs. NO- brother sister breeding. Its wrong. yes, a few may turn out but I have found not as many hounds where right even mentally. Breeding is a art. And you can't learn this art over night or alway's from books- It takes a ton of field time seeing what you need to let come into your related hounds in proper order. Breeding pure is GREAT!
One more thing- Hybrid Viger- after years of careful selection One out-cross can up your odds of seeing highly spirited pups with energy to burn. yet- again- your taking a chance that your out-cross was not as monitered as you would have done for his breeding by seeing all his relatives do the WORK. so your back to the drawing question so keep the litter and see what you did. if you can't than you couldn't do it the way I've done for many years and its hard to say wether you made the right choice.
Trying to breed too close to soon will get you into what they call bottlenecking Your so close you have to go outside again! then the guessing of whats going to happen in the future is Back!!! (YOU NEEDED TO OUTCROSS cause your dogs are too close! too soon.
A real good breeder thats real consistent in the way I have had to explain is very, very rare. They can't help it they don't have the energy or the available cash or space to see there results so you buy one.(AND HOPE) Good luck to all that try to make more than orange feathers on birds and pick up on all we want in our hounds cause it takes many many years to make such a hound.(Not a simple book but leg time of your own) Then when you do all that time and work SOme guy changes the blood name or outcrosses to??? and the guess is starting all over again of how many will be good. More can turn out cause of half of the foundation was well planned yet one out-cross and you loose fifty percent. and the lines eventually extict along with all that time money, thought,& field trips and all. When you do out-cross choose with thought and look at the dog run! can your favorite blow him away yet he's spoken about more- THEN DON"T BREED HIM> If you know what you see- and see what you learn and know your so much better off.
To take a well established hard chore line and extict it becouse you want your name on it is a SIN! especially when you were not the one doing the hard work for over 40 years. thats why pearson creeks gone, warfeild Red, and many many other well thought out well bredd true hunting dogs that were ready to light your rabbits up for many generations behind him. cause someone took the time to over see what he needs and did the work. Gill Davis BOLDSTROKE KENNELS- 1740-869-3738. breeding a good hunting hound without buying from dog traders or guess work. Im never in the market for a great one I breed a couple now and then for some good folks and becouse I didn't know ther intentions- some bad.
Was all this time and work worth it? to me- yes when I hunt- but, at other times NO- I learned people will destroy hard work without thinking. FAST! THey go on mere hersay not watching over the results or time spent making them correctly. And then if you see to it things are right for so many years than cause of an improper out-cross was made guess why one out of five is bad-They wern't sure about all the background of the out-cross. who's blamed. why you of corse!
If you do it the way I see to it. I guarentee it works cause what else can they pull up? In the pool of all we want cause thats all we let in. Even if they take after the well known hard hunted over GREAT great great great grandpa or grandma or aunt, cousins or sisters.
Now this my friends is a real answer to your question. You ever heard the statement when someone's selling a pup well your luckky if half turn out real good! I never need to think that way I've seen too many turn out real good. but, again I have a plan. always. and an art.
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
read what gils wrote here
i got a couple hounds from gil . they are making some decent hare dogs they are continuing to improve. one will never leave here. but why i say read what gil wrote is the male dog i got from him accidently bred a dog that couldnt be any more different. shes a mixed breed hound and beagle , just a mutt. well pup i kept out of this litter is almost a clone to the male. same voice same mannerisms etc. when i feed in the dark i get them mixed up. gil told me once i could probably breed this dog to a collie and reproduce his likeness. well i thought this guy must be nuts . and by the way anybody that has a dog box inthe back of their truck isnt wrapped to tight so dont take this to hard. gil knows about breeding dogs. AKC has seen fit to suspend him this is a loss to the beagle breed . theyve taken away this mans lifes work. shame on them. i wish akc would stick to their job which should be to keep records of matings nothing more. leave the breeding of dogs to the breeders, all i had to do is see one pup out of a dog gil gave me for me to believe anything he says about breeding dogs. lot of experts on breeding out there. lot of it they read in a book. i went to agriculture college a long time ago. was a dairy farmer. i learned alot about breeding in school most of which i forgot. the only thing im getting at that alot of theories on breeding were made breeding peas . i had no problem breeding cattle you are breeding for things you can easily measure. same with peas, big discussion here about breeding for color same thing , its easily measured and i could care less if they have pink polka dots, when breeding actual on the ground hunting dogs there is just so many things to consider. the last of which should be color . thats why breeding is an art . it takes more work than most are willing to give. ive given a little advice about breeding dogs in the past.ive dabbled at it twenty years. there is a real lot of truth in what gil says here. some of you might think hes a nut too . when you read what hes written do you get the felling hes obsessed with it. well if your obsessed and willing to put your whole life into it maybe you can do what hes done. i hope akc doent suspend you for breaking some stupid rule. gill dont take it to hard cause i once thought you was a nut . nobodies ever accused me of being in my right mind and i dont know any real good dog men that are pete
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Gill
What pete didn't mention is all the 100's of dogs he's tried to buy for big dollars that can't run a hare(Some well spoken of advertized all the time hounds as well) at all!!!! Where he is in Maine he has derby dogs from here one for 200.00 that was with one outcross a bit older and more time running ..and he is loving her and one for free I gave him a male- cause I hadn't time to work with him on top of the rest of work involved in his litter and he himself said has bred him already to this young pup- father he accidently bred is very young and got a late start. compaired to most boldstroke hounds. I was banned for one reason- I didn't have coller coated coller on three pups out playing in the yard that of corse I new very well and wouldn't pay there fine of 300.00 for such bs. Then she said. I hadn't reported the dogs that were stolen from me when I laid up from a 64 foot fall . She said I owed for that if I wasn't willing to pay three hundred dollers first- I call that blackmmail!!! I am far from ashamed of what I did. and called it exactly that! then I said, if she came back I would kick her Rump all the way down my drive to the open road for trying that! Its at least three hundred yards to the open road- I guess that didn't help but I didn't care they never cared about helping anyone know how to breed well. and only took my money as often as they could. SO, yes- I was suspended. but for the fact of there own greed! I -before any of her garbage came down switched to a better registration UKC with all records of blood as well and every hound here is recorded and have long serious pedigree's- Plus are really some of the finest I've ever had- and most folks almost every person say's the same. .. NOW- I have seen dogs by thereselve's offered here for 5000.00 alone and was offered 1200.00 for two dogs duelen a three year old I wouldn't take 2000.oo for musket when at his first time out to tenesse state at 7 months old he took a 7th overall and he'd never seen anyone but me and the dogs he new. his sister her record is the highest scoring dog in the history of ARHA for hound of the year in 96. I will sell my entire kennel first man or wommen that wants to keep some of the purest finest hounds I believe you can buy for 5000.00 thats including pregnent hounds and I have over 100 orders for more dogs. Merl Crain had a problem with AKC long ago but the pedigree's and old AKC papers go with all these UKC pedigreed dogs trophie's blood records past history and all. and some of the best hounds you'll ever own. broke and not completely finished yet as well but going to be some of the hardest hitting quicker line driving rabbits nightmares you ever saw.
Im not keeping up the work cause its just too much now for me so first 5000.00 gets Rebel how you all have heard in 7 hunts took 6 firsts and one 2nd. he's worth that himself! but I need the rest. but I believe its the best price in the history of beagles as you would get Many great dogs many worht all together much more. if you care about real hounds that are scared from hard hunting and not failing call and there all yours. Gill Davis. Other wise I will make out with much more this year anyways.
All Champion titles go with them and all the glory is yours to steal credit for as I don't care I know how that is. But, if anyone thinks they'll get dogs I know can out hunt out run many of the biggest hardest advertised hounds in the world don't bother to call.
The pure pedigree's are the same as AKC and the DNa test are all taken at the same lab as AKC uses don't let AKC brain wash anyone into not having the finest longest worked on hounds you can buy with full pedigree's showing there past as well as AKC can.
I am not selling one hound Im selling a legendary group thats very well respected. and some are also bred.
You can't loose unless your foolish. I've simply had it with the gossip that has never seen what I have. Or, done half the time or work to get to here.
Every dog here was always AKC till they tried to pull that- Then of corse I wouldn't permit robbery.
Im not keeping up the work cause its just too much now for me so first 5000.00 gets Rebel how you all have heard in 7 hunts took 6 firsts and one 2nd. he's worth that himself! but I need the rest. but I believe its the best price in the history of beagles as you would get Many great dogs many worht all together much more. if you care about real hounds that are scared from hard hunting and not failing call and there all yours. Gill Davis. Other wise I will make out with much more this year anyways.
All Champion titles go with them and all the glory is yours to steal credit for as I don't care I know how that is. But, if anyone thinks they'll get dogs I know can out hunt out run many of the biggest hardest advertised hounds in the world don't bother to call.
The pure pedigree's are the same as AKC and the DNa test are all taken at the same lab as AKC uses don't let AKC brain wash anyone into not having the finest longest worked on hounds you can buy with full pedigree's showing there past as well as AKC can.
I am not selling one hound Im selling a legendary group thats very well respected. and some are also bred.
You can't loose unless your foolish. I've simply had it with the gossip that has never seen what I have. Or, done half the time or work to get to here.
Every dog here was always AKC till they tried to pull that- Then of corse I wouldn't permit robbery.
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James Carman
inbreeding
Dan, the hounds that I spoke of in the above post were both very good hounds. However, the cross produced inferior hounds. Guess what? Neither of the hounds were ever bred again. The female has long since departed. The male is still here, but has never been used as a stud since. I placed much of the blame for this inferior litter on him. I kept him because I liked the way he performed in the field enough to make keeping him worth it to me. Is that what you meant?
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Dan Lefgren
Jim.
Very sorry to suggest that you might not have done the right thing with the two hounds by not breeding them again. At times it is very frustrating to see all the bad info around about very close inbreeding. Not only is it contrary to the recommendations of those in genetics and animal husbandrey it also is contradicted by the very sucessful efforts of many beagle breeders for the last 110 plus years or so , going back to Hiram Card of Bluecap fame. Those that fail to learn from history (in this case old peds) are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past. If good documented information is available of how others proceeded why not stand on the shoulders of these giants and go forward rather than spending years try to reinvent the wheel. In North America we have a huge very diverse gene pool of beagles, possibly 3 to 5 hundered thousand or maybe more of breeding age. Danger of a limited gene pool in beagles is mimimal to non-exsistenet at this time. If anything there is too much diversity especially within most small breeders kennels, the very reason that so many have trouble obtaining any consistency in their breeding efforts, unless like Gill Davis and others, they have spent many many years developing their own family of hounds. Developing these kennels requires the keeping of far more hounds and doing far more work than most are welling to keep.
Another note. Not all are descendents of UK beag;es even within AKC. It was an open registery for beagles up to about 1910 or so and then was reopened in the 1919-20 period for about 18 months because there were too few beagles registered with the AKC. There are FC listed in the early years of beagling that have unknown parentage. There are beagle pedigrees with UK pack foxhounds and harriers in them. Some fairly recent. All these things go towards keeping the beagle gene pool a large and diverse one even within the 3500 to 5000 or so beagles currently in the UK packs. (That is probably the largest number in breed history. At times in the past there have as few as a few hundred indivduals in those packs. At the end of the World Wars for example) Even today a dog of unknown parentage can be refgistered with the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles and four genrations later the descendents of those dogs will be fully registered beagles whose papers are accepted by the AKC. Granted there are very few beagles being brought to the US from the UK packs and then AKC registered but there are a few.
The ideal in any breed is a very large and diverse total gene pool made up of a large number of small very inbred, linebred kennels whose owners have done the backcrosses, health and field testing to prove the value, consistency and soundness of their stock and offspring. The more isolation and unrelatedness between each of those kennels the better. Today with some exceptions far too many beagle peds look like random selection or "hot hound" breeding programs (breed to last years or months big winner, etc.). You do not often see the generation after generation with the same kennel name that shows the consistnecy in selection necessary to produce great hounds that wil breed true and consistence. Small wonder that so many are disillusioned when they purchase the offspring of some FC or show winner and find that they have a hound that exhibts but few if any characteristics of its supposedly illustrious parents.
Very sorry to suggest that you might not have done the right thing with the two hounds by not breeding them again. At times it is very frustrating to see all the bad info around about very close inbreeding. Not only is it contrary to the recommendations of those in genetics and animal husbandrey it also is contradicted by the very sucessful efforts of many beagle breeders for the last 110 plus years or so , going back to Hiram Card of Bluecap fame. Those that fail to learn from history (in this case old peds) are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past. If good documented information is available of how others proceeded why not stand on the shoulders of these giants and go forward rather than spending years try to reinvent the wheel. In North America we have a huge very diverse gene pool of beagles, possibly 3 to 5 hundered thousand or maybe more of breeding age. Danger of a limited gene pool in beagles is mimimal to non-exsistenet at this time. If anything there is too much diversity especially within most small breeders kennels, the very reason that so many have trouble obtaining any consistency in their breeding efforts, unless like Gill Davis and others, they have spent many many years developing their own family of hounds. Developing these kennels requires the keeping of far more hounds and doing far more work than most are welling to keep.
Another note. Not all are descendents of UK beag;es even within AKC. It was an open registery for beagles up to about 1910 or so and then was reopened in the 1919-20 period for about 18 months because there were too few beagles registered with the AKC. There are FC listed in the early years of beagling that have unknown parentage. There are beagle pedigrees with UK pack foxhounds and harriers in them. Some fairly recent. All these things go towards keeping the beagle gene pool a large and diverse one even within the 3500 to 5000 or so beagles currently in the UK packs. (That is probably the largest number in breed history. At times in the past there have as few as a few hundred indivduals in those packs. At the end of the World Wars for example) Even today a dog of unknown parentage can be refgistered with the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles and four genrations later the descendents of those dogs will be fully registered beagles whose papers are accepted by the AKC. Granted there are very few beagles being brought to the US from the UK packs and then AKC registered but there are a few.
The ideal in any breed is a very large and diverse total gene pool made up of a large number of small very inbred, linebred kennels whose owners have done the backcrosses, health and field testing to prove the value, consistency and soundness of their stock and offspring. The more isolation and unrelatedness between each of those kennels the better. Today with some exceptions far too many beagle peds look like random selection or "hot hound" breeding programs (breed to last years or months big winner, etc.). You do not often see the generation after generation with the same kennel name that shows the consistnecy in selection necessary to produce great hounds that wil breed true and consistence. Small wonder that so many are disillusioned when they purchase the offspring of some FC or show winner and find that they have a hound that exhibts but few if any characteristics of its supposedly illustrious parents.
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Chuck Terry
- Posts: 621
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:26 pm
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bob