Brains, isn't it time you got yours

[warddog]

No comparison in coon hunts and mid west trials ,1 your treeing coon (Bring a tree dog son !) 2 ,Dogs are pounding a bunny rabbit hopefully in a circle on the sod (Bring a rabbit dog son )

Call me son all you want but I've been following hounds and rabbit hunting for 55 years. NOW 55 ain't my age either but the years I have been in the field behind hounds. You are correct I am NOT an experienced beagle trailer and do NOT care to be but there is NOT a single person on this earth that will ever make me believe that one can take subjectiveness from competition. I did attend a UKC beagle trial a few years back and it was as I stated previously much like the UKC coon hound trials but in lieu of trees the line was scored. Still had to hunt, strike and end the track so to speak. Never been to a Midwest trial so you are correct I do NOT have a clue about them and I'm not knocking them BUT if 55 years of chasing rabbits with a beagle is not experience I don't know what would be, But I suspect it is more than manys age. That does not make one an expert as in ALL these years I've yet to see an expert although I have hunted with many, many experienced hound people. I really don't care what anyone views because just like what you view in a rabbit dog will probably be viewed totally different by someone else. YEP coon hounds are hunting, striking, (jumping), trailing (tracking) and treeing or putting an end to their game and rabbit hunting is different HOW? Are beagle hounds not hunting, Jumping(striking), tracking(trailing) Circling back to the hunter (treeing) or putting an end to their game? It all seems pretty similar to me until folks want to JUDGE the style in which the same things get done. Many hate the walkie talkies BUT they have field champions in that format just as any other competition. Regardless of the system, format or whatever you want to call it there has to be a means of determining the best and the elements that they are judged upon. When I hunt rabbits I expect my hounds to hunt, jump, run, open and bring that bunny rabbit back so I can EAT IT! WHERE"S the difference as when I coon hunt I expect my dogs to hunt, strike, run, open and tree that game so I can EAT IT! Actually it is so they can eat it as that is why they do what they do. OK guys, I'll give up on this as U R right I have no clue in 55 years of hunting behind hounds what they are supposed to do but what I do know is when the dogs hunt. jump, strike, open and circle that may suit me but it may not suit you and that is subjective, period.

[sparky]

Midwest trials and UKC trials are totally different,No comparison in their scoring an judging. You remind me of that teacher on the cartoon Charlie Brown,when the teacher talks - Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah ,there's a whole lot coming out but you ain't saying NOTHIN.

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

I run little pack and love my lp dogs. But if I could I would run mid west and have that style dog. I choose to run lp because there are 3 Lp clubs soon to be 4 with in 45 min of my home I can also attend many state and big five hunts within a 2 1/2 hr drive. I have been to 1 mw trial and loved it and I have owned 1 mw style dog. I regret selling her. If I just wanted to shoot rabbits I would still have mw style dogs.

[warddog]

Midwest trials and UKC trials are totally different,No comparison in their scoring an judging. You remind me of that teacher on the cartoon Charlie Brown,when the teacher talks - Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah ,there's a whole lot coming out but you ain't saying NOTHIN.

So here is the language directly from the AKC rules and I must say they are exactly what every rabbit hunter looks for in a dog to put meat on the table. However we all have different taste and or opinions of exactly what is acceptable when weighing these accomplishments against faultiness. This seems to say to me that there will be faultiness in the dogs because there just isn't a perfect one yet. IMO this is ALL subjective and is left up to two judges and their interpretation of what accomplishment THEY SEE as compared to what faultiness THEY SEE. YES, it appears that AKC and UKC are totally different because in UKC the dogs actually get judged by a specific action in which a point system is applied and from what I understand in AKC they are awarded positive admiration or demerits solely in the eye of the judges. I also watched a video on YouTube in which such a trail was filmed and ALTHOUGH I am viewed as not experienced I witnessed a lot of STUFF caught on video that the judges running their guts out never saw.
So here's some more BLAH<BLAH<BLAH coming out of my mouth but one doesn't need to be an expert in rabbit hunting with hounds to judge what was caught in the video several times but obviously not by the judges as they weren't even close to the live action but merely trailing hounds that were trailing a rabbit although a few times there I wondered if that were true. If you like it have at it you are entitled to like what you want and have an opinion about what you think. BUT so does everyone else who may not agree with, interpret or see things the same way you do. Even the Supreme Court judges don't read and interpret the rules, I mean laws, the same way and so the majority wins. Those that will like it will group together and I suppose they will then view anyone else as not experienced to be able to see things the way they do.

(1) Hounds shall be credited principally for their positive accomplishments. The extent of any credit should be governed by the magnitude of the accomplishment and the manner in which it is achieved. Credit is earned for searching ability, pursuing ability, accuracy in trailing, proper use of voice, endurance, adaptability, patience, determination, proper degree of independence, cooperation, controlled competitive spirit, intelligence displayed when searching or in solving problems encountered along the trail and success in accounting for game. (2) When crediting hounds for working style or methods used to gain accomplishments, Judges should keep the purpose of the breed constantly in mind and be alert for hounds, deficient in ability, that make simple problems appear difficult. They also should guard against becoming impressed by fascinating actions that do not produce results. Credit for working style should be used chiefly to differentiate between successful performers, and should never be applied to a degree which might indicate that style or method has been preferred to accomplishment, except in instances where excessive faultiness is involved. Credit for any accomplishment should be in proportion to its contribution to the performance. Mere lack of fault is not grounds for credit. While faultiness is not to be considered lightly, the slightly faulty hound that succeeds should be preferred to the stylist that fails.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

Midwest trials and UKC trials are totally different,No comparison in their scoring an judging. You remind me of that teacher on the cartoon Charlie Brown,when the teacher talks - Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah ,there's a whole lot coming out but you ain't saying NOTHIN.

spot on chuck. Guys always have somethin to say,hard to talk about field trials if ya havent ever been to any. My hat's off to the judges,yall have a very tough job,I like to compete from time to time so I appreciate the hard work you guys put into judging our dogs.

[warddog]

Midwest trials and UKC trials are totally different,No comparison in their scoring an judging. You remind me of that teacher on the cartoon Charlie Brown,when the teacher talks - Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah ,there's a whole lot coming out but you ain't saying NOTHIN.

spot on chuck. Guys always have somethin to say,hard to talk about field trials if ya havent ever been to any. My hat's off to the judges,yall have a very tough job,I like to compete from time to time so I appreciate the hard work you guys put into judging our dogs.

My hats off to those judges as they certainly have my admiration as I could NOT and would NOT run my guts out chasing hounds. My original post NEVER said a single word about Midwest trials but rather observations about trails in general. Read many posts over the years on this as well as other boards of arguing over rules, interpretation and how folks viewed a specific set of circumstances from a trail. Also been involved in much of the same things in UKC nite hunts as both a competitor and a judge. Seems some got their panties in a wad by thinking I was knocking their specific beagle trail format which was NEVER the case as my observations were in generalities as compared to what I had experienced in a competition setting verses an actual hunting setting. This entire post was started as a means of funning but soon turned into people getting personal. That's OK as I've got big shoulders and understand that is an opinion as well. But if folks are keeping it REAL it is all a matter of opinion (subjective) with factors (objectives)that are to be supposedly used in weighting the individual(s) judgement.

In watching the YOUTUBE video I spoke about, I did watch those two judges running their guts out after the dogs in that trail in several different groups. I also thought that the one taking the video seemed to have a better view from the standpoint of what the dogs did as a result of what he actually witnessed the rabbit do rather than what the dogs did when the ones running their guts out had no clue of until those who seen it yelled it to them as the dogs sure never told the story. I don't know about anyone else but I have never hunted a rabbit that way nor have I ever seen it done that way when actually hunting. I suspect the cameraman was a rabbit hunter who happened to have a dog in the hunt as he put himself in a position to see the rabbit and then the dogs reaction to that and not the dogs reacting to what they don't know. That is but proof that judges can NOT run after the pack and see specifics. Maybe that is why Walkie Talkie guys love their format as the dogs are more suited to them being able to see it ALL. Had a guy I worked with that ran walkie talkie beagles and had a running pen just about three miles from where I live. Went over there and followed several of his dogs all one weekend and they did a nice job according to him but my opinion was I never had hunted a rabbit like that nor would I. Seems gwyoungs post digressed from funning about dogs to personal attacks when a specifc format was being discussed by those folks, NOT me as I'm still talkin in general but I'm done as to carry on will have no impact on them or me. I do thank you for the debate as I got more experience from the discussion.

[S.R.Patch]

Ken, it's all politics and ya ain't gonna change nothing in politics.
Interesting point Lemarr tried to make about fieldtrials, "a rabbit hunter wouldn't know nothing about fieldtrials if he hadn't been to one", but yet a fieldtrail hound and a rabbit hound are suppose to be one in the same. Seems a rabbit hunter that knows a good rabbit hound would know a good fieldtrial hound if they're the same hound...hummm

I remember when I first started going to little pack, some awful good hounds, then they got faster and faster and looser and looser. Well, faster was ok until they would loose the rabbit, then they were on the next hill looking for another. Not what a rabbit hunter would want if the cycle was low for rabbits. The focus on the rabbit seemed to become secondary to the loose competitiveness of the hounds being promoted. This was not the hounds fault but the folks judging and selecting for what they perceived as the best hounds that day. My opinion was the judges were not judging as a rabbit hunter would when hunting. To them, lost rabbits were acceptable, it was off to the next runner. We needed runners to have checks for scoring, but what about that lost rabbit. What if it's one of only three you get a chance at that day? The emphasis of patience and allowing the hounds to grub out that rabbit again becomes paramount to the hunter wanting for his hounds to finish the chase to the gun.

Trials are a fun game but let rabbit hunting always be your guide. jmho

[sparky]

I'm not a fan of little pack (no offense to that format) I prefer the Midwest Gundog Federation.
I don't think anyone could watch a couple little video clips an think their getting the whole concept of how the field trials are being judged. Judges mark PLENTY of lines throughout a field trial,but you would have no idea because you've never been to a Midwest Trial,you watch a couple videos on youtube an read about what other people have said on here,and then get on here an run your mouth about something you don't know anything about. The judges don't always trail behind the dogs,they do a lot of cutting the pack off,and seeing marked lines,the Field Marshal will also get a lot of marked lines letting the judges know exactly where the marked line is,the Marshal also shoots over every pack to make sure none of the dogs are gunshy. Sometimes the judges will get tired from running,and one judge starts cutting the pack off scoring them as they come through on lines,as the other judge trails the pack,I have also seen both judges cut off the pack an get themselves in position to see the rabbit come through on a marked line,then when they catch their breath they go right back to trailing the pack,I think it's very unfair an rude to come on here with all your bogus comments about field trials,and you've NEVER been to one,you watch a couple videos an put the judges down for being far behind,saying you the al'mighty wardog could see more in that little video clip than the judges. I think you should actually go to some trials,and your opinion MIGHT mean a little more.

Wardog do you currently own beagles?
If so,how often do you run your dogs?

[S.R.Patch]

Sparky, I think Ken already said he wasn't making this personal against any one format. When people become so easily offended we're oft made to wonder what their hiding or covering up or what their agenda really is.
Ken has hounds and is retired, so I think he can run hounds when ever he likes. Your acting like a snotnose kid. jmho

[sparky]

S R Patch, It's always easier to criticize something without actually trying it yourself,I know what Ken said,unfortunately I read everything he wrote. I understand that field trials aren't for everybody,but it's irritating when someone continues to make false assumptions based on absolutely no experience at all. jmho

I have judged one licensed trial an a couple derby trials,have Field Marshaled several trials. I prefer to Marshal because I'm not in good enough cardio shape to judge. People put a lot of effort,time,money into these trials,there are a lot of good honest people that run these trials,it's definitely not all politics like you said. Your acting like a hater, jmho

[Casey Harner]

Different strokes for different folks. A Ukc champion or Grand Champ should be able to compete in the akc Midwest and vi versa. The scoring is different in every format and judges who uses their score books should be able to determine the winner in each series or cast. I've seen dogs/handlers in UKC not stay down or get picked up in the Midwest and I've seen AKC Field Champions not win or get picked up in UKC. All formats have their dogs that will excel in them, but the BA's are the ones that can do it all and win it all in every format.

[warddog]

The thing I find most interesting about much of this is that it is subjective or relegated to OPINION. Field trials are no different as it all boils down to the judges OPINION which is subjective. Sure they have all kinds of general rules, regulations etc BUT the bottom line is every one of those are interpreted by an individual's OPINION or is subjective. When I trialed coon hounds and was a judge as well as having passed the master of hounds test that became pretty clear to me. TRUTH is the rules book even clearly stated that "the judges decision is final." Never witnessed to many disputes overturned by a master of hounds at the club house as they just were NOT present when the problem occurred and can only make a decision from what they are told and then the judges description of how THEY saw it. Matters not how many in the cast agree the final word is what the judge says they saw or interpreted. Another truth is what the judge saw or interpreted may be totally different from ALL other members of the cast but their subjective perception is final. Witnessed many questions come back to the club house and nearly fights but when the dust settled and the master of hounds decision was with THEIR judge the one questioning it did NOT pursue it above that level as it cost them money to do so. The other thing that many forget to understand is and why I quit wasting my money on trials and bench shows is that when you attend one you are asking and agreeing to the basic premise that your dog will be judged by a specific individual and it is impossible to remove personal subjective tastes as well as dislikes from the equation regardless of the rules. ONE big one we hear about all the time is size or class and how the mere dropping of a measuring devise can be argued till the cows come home.

Evidently some did NOT read my words as written but added their interpretation to what the written words. Never singled out any trial format and in fact made a statement in regards to filed trials period from what "I" found interesting. "I" found it most interesting from what "I" had read through this one thread that started as a means of funning. Also stated what I HAD witnessed in the trials that I had personally witnessed for years in coon hounds as well as what I had read and seen on these beagle sites. Then from that came the personal attack that I was "viewed" as someone who don't have a clue or an experienced beagle. Maybe just maybe I do have a clue and after my years of experience following hounds pursuing game I don't have to run behind them trial after trail to tell if what I am looking at suits me as a rabbit hunter. Viewed the lengthy video on YOUTUBE that was filmed by a rabbit hunter that posts many videos on here that folks beg for more of and noted what he captured on film. Also watched some videos from a young man who had sent me several of dogs he was hunting and liked. He really liked one in particular and from his videos I told him the other one he had was the better dog. I think he still has that one and got rid of his initial pick. Had an ole 75 year old guy call me just last night from new York after speaking with Adam Seger inquiring about a dog he had die out of Shooter that was the BEST he had ever had in 55 years of following beagles. He called me because the dog that died was out of a cross I made to Shooter and my female. I have had several reports on dogs from that litter being better than average. So go ahead folks and judge what you have absolutely no clue about but do have an opinion. We are right back full circle to my original posts of OPINION. I think most have actually reaffirmed what I wrote. Many try to claim my opinions formed from what I have experienced over many years to be me trying to be an authority when I have conceded many, many times that I am absolutely NO AUTHORITY on beagles BUT I do have opinions of what I like and consider the best, for me. Bottom line is, in keeping it all real, is as Casey Harner stated, "different strokes for different folks" and I suggest that, folks is personal likes, taste, OPINION or subjectivity! I like what I like and others like what they like and if you do not like what I like does NOT make me view you as anything other than you having a personal opinion different than mine which everyone is entitled to. Now when folks quit trying to tell others how they interpreted what I wrote and attacking me personally, I will have no need to carry on and we can agree to disagree.

[sparky]

I will have no need to carry on and we can agree to disagree.

lol, sounds good.

[Pine Lakes]

The thing I find most interesting about much of this is that it is subjective or relegated to OPINION. Field trials are no different as it all boils down to the judges OPINION which is subjective. Sure they have all kinds of general rules, regulations etc BUT the bottom line is every one of those are interpreted by an individual's OPINION or is subjective. When I trialed coon hounds and was a judge as well as having passed the master of hounds test that became pretty clear to me. TRUTH is the rules book even clearly stated that "the judges decision is final." Never witnessed to many disputes overturned by a master of hounds at the club house as they just were NOT present when the problem occurred and can only make a decision from what they are told and then the judges description of how THEY saw it. Matters not how many in the cast agree the final word is what the judge says they saw or interpreted. Another truth is what the judge saw or interpreted may be totally different from ALL other members of the cast but their subjective perception is final. Witnessed many questions come back to the club house and nearly fights but when the dust settled and the master of hounds decision was with THEIR judge the one questioning it did NOT pursue it above that level as it cost them money to do so. The other thing that many forget to understand is and why I quit wasting my money on trials and bench shows is that when you attend one you are asking and agreeing to the basic premise that your dog will be judged by a specific individual and it is impossible to remove personal subjective tastes as well as dislikes from the equation regardless of the rules. ONE big one we hear about all the time is size or class and how the mere dropping of a measuring devise can be argued till the cows come home.

Evidently some did NOT read my words as written but added their interpretation to what the written words. Never singled out any trial format and in fact made a statement in regards to filed trials period from what "I" found interesting. "I" found it most interesting from what "I" had read through this one thread that started as a means of funning. Also stated what I HAD witnessed in the trials that I had personally witnessed for years in coon hounds as well as what I had read and seen on these beagle sites. Then from that came the personal attack that I was "viewed" as someone who don't have a clue or an experienced beagle. Maybe just maybe I do have a clue and after my years of experience following hounds pursuing game I don't have to run behind them trial after trail to tell if what I am looking at suits me as a rabbit hunter. Viewed the lengthy video on YOUTUBE that was filmed by a rabbit hunter that posts many videos on here that folks beg for more of and noted what he captured on film. Also watched some videos from a young man who had sent me several of dogs he was hunting and liked. He really liked one in particular and from his videos I told him the other one he had was the better dog. I think he still has that one and got rid of his initial pick. Had an ole 75 year old guy call me just last night from new York after speaking with Adam Seger inquiring about a dog he had die out of Shooter that was the BEST he had ever had in 55 years of following beagles. He called me because the dog that died was out of a cross I made to Shooter and my female. I have had several reports on dogs from that litter being better than average. So go ahead folks and judge what you have absolutely no clue about but do have an opinion. We are right back full circle to my original posts of OPINION. I think most have actually reaffirmed what I wrote. Many try to claim my opinions formed from what I have experienced over many years to be me trying to be an authority when I have conceded many, many times that I am absolutely NO AUTHORITY on beagles BUT I do have opinions of what I like and consider the best, for me. Bottom line is, in keeping it all real, is as Casey Harner stated, "different strokes for different folks" and I suggest that, folks is personal likes, taste, OPINION or subjectivity! I like what I like and others like what they like and if you do not like what I like does NOT make me view you as anything other than you having a personal opinion different than mine which everyone is entitled to. Now when folks quit trying to tell others how they interpreted what I wrote and attacking me personally, I will have no need to carry on and we can agree to disagree.

Warddog don't take my comments here as a personal attack, even if I think that your ideology is wrong. Ultimately, what we keep in our kennels is our choice.

First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common. Along with that, you posted on a public forum what seemed to be atleast slightly derogatory comments using "opinion" as the slight. Everything is opinion. It starts with the opinion of which pup, or which female to breed, or which stud to use. Then onto the opinion if the dog is or isn't good enough to compete after months and months if not years of training. Then the opinions of the judges at each and every trial that the dog is entered in. I find it blatantly ignorant that all those "opinions" that go into making an AKC field champion are looked down upon by some, especially those that have not participated in more than 1 or 2 trials if any at all. Then they log onto a public forum and express their "opinion" that dogs ran in Mid-West trials aren't hunted and cannot run on snow. Not only is it stupid and childish, it's totally false. So while you're being offended by personal attacks, they may have been brought on by your offenses, even if not intended.

I am first and foremost a hunter, and always will be. My efforts to prepare hounds for trials are pale in comparison to many, but they are all in an effort to produce a better beagle. If you prefer to not test your hounds against other folks' that is absolutely your right to do so, but suggesting that trials are not productive, for lack of better words, is only your "opinion". Your opinion is wrong, but that is my opinion which I also have a right to express. Ultimately, no one puts more time, effort, and money into producing the best possible rabbit hounds than trialers do. To suggest that an individual can do a better job than the thousands entering beagles in trials will always be confronted on this site, and rightfully so.

[Hare Chaser]

I'm not a trialer and never will be. I do belong to a very nice beagle club. As a club member I support field trials. I've seen some very nice dogs that have done well in field trials that I'd be happy to own as a hunting dog. Wether you're for field trials or not the majority of us are indebted to many folks who are trialers. If you doubt the truth of that statement please look back at least 5 generations in your dogs pedigree, if that far, and see if there's is not at least one FC in the pedigree of the dogs you currently hunt. There likely are a few that can honestly say no FC exists in that search of their dogs heritage. I bet there are not many though! Many really good hunting dogs will earn respect in field trials. You may have to hit several in order to see your dog acknowledged but then again I seldom form much of an opinion based on seeing a hound go just a couple of times in the woods. I respect the guys that put in the time and effort to enter their dogs in trials regularly. I respect even more the guys that consistently hunt the same dogs they trial!