Brains, isn't it time you got yours

[Pine Lakes]

Getting quality rabbit dogs is easy. Getting quality rabbit dogs that can best 20+ other rabbit dogs on a given day is not so easy. It's also easy to state how good something is without testing it outside of your own opinion. I doubt you know anymore than the rest of us to be honest. Probably less judging by the posts on this thread. Good luck to you though and as long as you enjoy your hounds that's all that matters.

[outrider66]

Sounds like you have better luck getting quality rabbit dogs then me ! I can talk about dogs without mentioning trials but yes I know its hard to beat 20+ dogs on a givin
day . but if trials are what you like to do than go for it ! I got My toes in the FLA. sand this week than off to Dothan Al. to run with an old washed up has been . that's near
& dear to me ! good luck trialing !!

[warddog]

The thing I find most interesting about much of this is that it is subjective or relegated to OPINION. Field trials are no different as it all boils down to the judges OPINION which is subjective. Sure they have all kinds of general rules, regulations etc BUT the bottom line is every one of those are interpreted by an individual's OPINION or is subjective. When I trialed coon hounds and was a judge as well as having passed the master of hounds test that became pretty clear to me. TRUTH is the rules book even clearly stated that "the judges decision is final." Never witnessed to many disputes overturned by a master of hounds at the club house as they just were NOT present when the problem occurred and can only make a decision from what they are told and then the judges description of how THEY saw it. Matters not how many in the cast agree the final word is what the judge says they saw or interpreted. Another truth is what the judge saw or interpreted may be totally different from ALL other members of the cast but their subjective perception is final. Witnessed many questions come back to the club house and nearly fights but when the dust settled and the master of hounds decision was with THEIR judge the one questioning it did NOT pursue it above that level as it cost them money to do so. The other thing that many forget to understand is and why I quit wasting my money on trials and bench shows is that when you attend one you are asking and agreeing to the basic premise that your dog will be judged by a specific individual and it is impossible to remove personal subjective tastes as well as dislikes from the equation regardless of the rules. ONE big one we hear about all the time is size or class and how the mere dropping of a measuring devise can be argued till the cows come home.

[hard on a check]

The thing I find most interesting is guys making comments about Midwest field trials,and have no idea what their talking about. Judging Midwest field trials isn't based on the opinion of one judge,there are two judges and a field marshal,both judges have to agree on the decisions being made,the field marshal can also share his input. Scoring is based on Merits and Demerits (plus & minus). Merits - jump/strike,a drive,a check,making a turn. Demerits - no hunt/standing around,extra mouth,backtracking,swinging,skirting,laying false lines,blowing off the end giving tongue,running off game, etc etc. Judging isn't about just opinions,you simply write down what you see,after the race is over both judges get together an go over what they have written down,the field marshal can go over what he saw as well,the judges will then have to agree an make their decisions. Judging is basically math not just opinions,if a dog has 7 merits an 2 demerits then 7-2=5 if another dog has 5 merits an 1 demerit then 5-1=4 Basic math,writing down what you see,going over it together,coming to an agreement an making decisions. If the judges have a difference in their scores they can ask the field marshal what he has,if they still cant come to an agreement then they will keep running until they do reach an agreement. There is no time limits in Midwest trials,the judges will go as long as it takes until they get it right an agree.

I'm not saying the Midwest trials are perfect,but most people have no idea how much hard work goes into putting those 5 dogs on the table at the end of the day,and it's kinda annoying when these guys get on their computer an talk nonsense.

[Pine Lakes]

The thing I find most interesting about much of this is that it is subjective or relegated to OPINION. Field trials are no different as it all boils down to the judges OPINION which is subjective. Sure they have all kinds of general rules, regulations etc BUT the bottom line is every one of those are interpreted by an individual's OPINION or is subjective. When I trialed coon hounds and was a judge as well as having passed the master of hounds test that became pretty clear to me. TRUTH is the rules book even clearly stated that "the judges decision is final." Never witnessed to many disputes overturned by a master of hounds at the club house as they just were NOT present when the problem occurred and can only make a decision from what they are told and then the judges description of how THEY saw it. Matters not how many in the cast agree the final word is what the judge says they saw or interpreted. Another truth is what the judge saw or interpreted may be totally different from ALL other members of the cast but their subjective perception is final. Witnessed many questions come back to the club house and nearly fights but when the dust settled and the master of hounds decision was with THEIR judge the one questioning it did NOT pursue it above that level as it cost them money to do so. The other thing that many forget to understand is and why I quit wasting my money on trials and bench shows is that when you attend one you are asking and agreeing to the basic premise that your dog will be judged by a specific individual and it is impossible to remove personal subjective tastes as well as dislikes from the equation regardless of the rules. ONE big one we hear about all the time is size or class and how the mere dropping of a measuring devise can be argued till the cows come home.

Warddog I think you are only partially correct at best. Like Arlie stated, it is the decision of 2 judges and a marshall(who is usually a licensed judge) if need be. Also, these dogs come to trials already under "personal subjective tastes" by the owners. My argument isn't if it is for everyone, it is the fact that these dogs are hunted over and don't sit in a kennel when it's time to put some meat on the stove.

[warddog]

I don't know a thing about Midwest trials or any other beagle trials and my reply was not directed at that or any specific format BUT rather trials or competition in general. I believe folks are sh++ing yourself if you do not believe that judging is subjective. Even your boss at work who rates your job performance is subjective as you just can NOT remove it all from human nature. All the stuff, hard on a check describes is also applicable to UKC coon hound trials which I do have experience in and have witnessed many, many of them over my years in them to realize just how SUBJECTIVE all those rules, pluses, minuses and circle points can be. Of course when one is hunting with the lights out and not running after the dogs it is mostly scored by what is heard although I have seen judges go BLIND when seeing was a big part of the score card. I've also been in cast where there were hunting judges as well as others with non-hunting judges and I will say I witnessed BOTH being subjective in some point or another. The only way a judge or judges can see EVERYTHING is when they can walk behind the entire pack the entire race and those types of races are what most of us do not like. I have seen automatic strike dogs, trash burners that fall off and get treed alone, slick treeing machines, alligators at the tree that are smart enough to not show it when the lights come on, slick handlers that call other dogs as theirs, silent trackers that miraculously get struck in last but first at the tree or treed alone on a completely different tree and hunting judges that go blind at the tree. Also been in casts where the majority of those in it knew what was going on but could not prove it especially when the judges didn't or didn't want to see it. Not even trying to say they were all like that but more than I wanted to admit at one time and a big part of the reason(s) I got out of the game after many years and dollars spent playing it.

[hard on a check]

I believe folks are sh**ing yourself if you believe you can set behind your computer having never been to a Field Trial,and know how Field Trials are being judged,comparing UKC Night Hunts to Midwest Field Trials. Like I said before - I'm definitely not saying the Midwest is perfect,but it's the best I've ever been to, I've also been to several UKC Night Hunts,my dad was an avid coon hunter an we had a few Night Champions,and one Grand Night Champion. Honestly there's really not much comparison between the two,pretty big difference actually as I've been to both. Instead of talking about what you don't know or what you think you know why don't you go attend some trials sometime?

[warddog]

NOT sitting behind a computer sh**ting myself as that is why I do not trail. There certainly is no difference when one puts themselves in a competition being solely judged by an opinion of a set of rules that are subject to interpretation. We aren't talking about a referee where a basket is two points and a touchdown is 6 points where everyone can plainly see and interpret a score but rather where individuals make an opinion and interpretation on what they personally see, have seen and or heard. I don't see much of any difference be that a night hunt or a field trial. What one person sees, hears and interprets may be totally different than what someone else sees, hears or in their individual interpretations of it. We have clear cut language and wording in the U.S. Constitution in the Second Amendment that has stood the test of over 240 years but we still see others interpret and JUDGE it to mean something totally different than what most of us interpreted out entire lives. Has not a thing to do with one specific anything but rather human nature. I am NOT knocking any specific trail format as like has been said by many there are none perfect because to be perfect the human element of personal bias would have to be completely removed from the equation just like a ball in the round hoop is 2 points and a ball over the goal line is 6 points. Now if one is judging as in barn yard horseshoes then close is good enough.

[outrider66]

I see no comparision in nite hunts and beagle field trials ! But theres no way I can see a human being keeping up with my dogs and getting a good look at them !
and I'm sure a lot of people can say the same thing .unless you are running in open territory where you can judge from a distance . I don't think it possible for a
professional athlete to make to many circles with the dogs ! especialy in the spring time ! when dogs are going in and out of hearing theres no way !!!

[hard on a check]

As far as keeping up with the dogs,most judges jog regularly to stay in shape,but your absolutely right it is hard to stay on top of the pack all the time,you have to run your guts out an give your best effort,judging is a tough job,that's one of the reasons why there's two judges an a field marshal out there,you only write down what you see,if the two judges an the marshal get together,and they don't think they have enough to make a decision,then they'll keep running them until they feel comfortable with making sound decisions,as I've stated before the Midwest isn't perfect,but nothing is.

[warddog]

I see no comparision in nite hunts and beagle field trials ! But theres no way I can see a human being keeping up with my dogs and getting a good look at them !
and I'm sure a lot of people can say the same thing .unless you are running in open territory where you can judge from a distance . I don't think it possible for a
professional athlete to make to many circles with the dogs ! especialy in the spring time ! when dogs are going in and out of hearing theres no way !!!

If the competition is based on a objective set of rules such as so many points for 1st,2nd, third and fourth strike as well as on the line when the rabbit is circled and seen then it is exactly like a nite hunt. The dog with the highest plus points wins as they have shown more positive then negative. Circle points count neither for or against. Pretty objective set of rules that if followed by the word of law of them is without bias. TRUTH is the interpretation in applying the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th is subjective at times. I have read that UKC beagle trials are that way which is how UKC nite hunts are judged to make the point that one or two or even three people can NOT see EVERYTHING nor do they always agree with what they witnessed or heard. These are specific objectives by which points are scored, then tallied to determine the best. Just like a basketball or football game as the highest score accumulated when meeting the objective is the winner. There is nothing left to subjectiveness at the end but a lot in the middle to get there. If one is judging by anything other than such an objective means that lends to subjective interpretation of what is being seen. I have read over the years on these boards all the arguments about one format or the other but seem to remember one that made the claim that awarding points in a trail when the game is never seen is what separates the UKC format from many others. Many of us who do not trail read these posts with great interest so as to get a perspective of how they all operate in determining the BEST. I read all of these to get an overall view to determine in my own mind if in fact those with the titles are actually the best of the best. For many of us that merely rabbit hunt that is what we use to make an initial decision on the type or line of hounds to possess and or for breeding, should we decide to do so after knowing we have a dog worthy of raising a litter from. Of course we want to see the other dog in action if at all possible and if not the common discussions that we see on these boards give us info that we can not personally obtain for what ever reason. I do know and have witnessed many, many times that coon hounds with degrees are NOT always the best and in fact some are totally bogus and have been judged numerous times by the objective rule system that supposedly leaves out all subjectiveness. NOT

As far as keeping up with the dogs,most judges jog regularly to stay in shape,but your absolutely right it is hard to stay on top of the pack all the time,you have to run your guts out an give your best effort,judging is a tough job,that's one of the reasons why there's two judges an a field marshal out there,you only write down what you see,if the two judges an the marshal get together,and they don't think they have enough to make a decision,then they'll keep running them until they feel comfortable with making sound decisions,as I've stated before the Midwest isn't perfect,but nothing is.

That is exactly my point as I was not judging any specific format but rather basically saying they are ALL with faults because the animals are being judged by man and it is human nature to make mistakes for whatever reason. IMO, like dogs I doubt there is a human without fault or perfect in every decision as I know I have made many.

[hard on a check]

Wardog with all due respect, You don't have a clue an I don't view you as an experienced beagler,rather just someone that likes to hear themself talk without any real knowledge of what's being discussed, it's a waste of my time to keep responding to you.

[BCBeagles]

I have been to a few trials...I saw the same thing at all of them.

Judges did what they could, BUT if your dog does good things when a judge was in position to see it. THEY DID get credit...they are not going to see all the action so have a dog in the action at all times....

If you take a consistent hound that performs at a high level when the judges are in position you have a shot.....overall that describes a good hound. I want all of mine to perform at a high level every time they are run...Who wouldn't? BUT it takes a much better than just "good" hound to perform in the trials at times as they cant see every little part of the whole race.

You have to get a dog in top shape and it has to do the correct parts of the running...ex. picking up a check(by working the check area closely), driving a rabbit accurately without losing control and if it does it recovers quickly and accurately, works a check area inside out, and uses it's mouth when it should, jumps a rabbit and moves it out as it should....just to name a few specific things. Then you have a shot...

You have to go to gain experience and see what dogs win....they are doing things that keep them in the action and on the wood. And I will vouch for the FC's that have been in my kennel(I BOUGHT THEM)...they were and still are outstanding hunting dogs(NOT JUST A TRIAL DOG)...I would not own them let alone breed them if they were not.....

There are many others that fall into that category that finished in the Midwest as well.....

[outrider66]

WARDOG nothing against you Bud but I will stand with what I said I see no comparision in nite hunts & field trials ! for example you are not on a clock,you are not
competing against another handler, you are not responsible for finding the rabbit , you are not on a deadline to get back and you don't have a hunting judge ! like
you ive been all over the country going to nite hunts ! I also competed before there were hunting judges ! And I probably quit for many of the same reasons you did!
I think the biggest one thing I learned from it is that most didn't no what a coondog is!!! and I also learned that most handlers were more competitive than there dog!!
I could go on & on theres a lot of ways you can get screwed at a nite hunt

[fastone]

No comparison in coon hunts and mid west trials ,1 your treeing coon (Bring a tree dog son !) 2 ,Dogs are pounding a bunny rabbit hopefully in a circle on the sod (Bring a rabbit dog son )