Re: Brains, isn't it time you got yours
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:21 pm
"Warddog don't take my comments here as a personal attack, even if I think that your ideology is wrong. Ultimately, what we keep in our kennels is our choice.
First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common. Along with that, you posted on a public forum what seemed to be atleast slightly derogatory comments using "opinion" as the slight. Everything is opinion. It starts with the opinion of which pup, or which female to breed, or which stud to use. Then onto the opinion if the dog is or isn't good enough to compete after months and months if not years of training. Then the opinions of the judges at each and every trial that the dog is entered in. I find it blatantly ignorant that all those "opinions" that go into making an AKC field champion are looked down upon by some, especially those that have not participated in more than 1 or 2 trials if any at all. Then they log onto a public forum and express their "opinion" that dogs ran in Mid-West trials aren't hunted and cannot run on snow. Not only is it stupid and childish, it's totally false. So while you're being offended by personal attacks, they may have been brought on by your offenses, even if not intended.
I am first and foremost a hunter, and always will be. My efforts to prepare hounds for trials are pale in comparison to many, but they are all in an effort to produce a better beagle. If you prefer to not test your hounds against other folks' that is absolutely your right to do so, but suggesting that trials are not productive, for lack of better words, is only your "opinion". Your opinion is wrong, but that is my opinion which I also have a right to express. Ultimately, no one puts more time, effort, and money into producing the best possible rabbit hounds than trialers do. To suggest that an individual can do a better job than the thousands entering beagles in trials will always be confronted on this site, and rightfully so.[/quote]
Pine Lakes, I take absolutely NO OFFENSE to someone giving their opinion which is exactly what you did and you are entitled to it. In keeping it real with what I posted, I also understand the time and effort getting a dog ready for a trail. Remember I used to competition coon hunt and did plenty of it for YEARS but some folks say that is NO experience in the trial game. So can we agree that I do know and understand what goes into that aspect of the game? You stated you did NOT agree with my ideology or visionary THEORY by saying " First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common" to which probably comes the rub between my ideology and many others that play the game. One BIG point that is failed to be brought into the discussion is HOW the best is derived at within these various competitions. Some have a point system awarded by judges(s) based upon specific actions as cited in a set of rules that they personally see or hear such as strike, opening, jumping, checking, losing or lack of opening in a timely manner, running the line and finally assuring the game is accounted for at the end of a circle or at the tree by personally seeing that game. Others have a set of traits that are judged without being awarded specific points for but rather at the total discretion of the judge(s). The one thing in common in ALL is that the means of determining the best of that specific trail be it AKC, UKC, or any other individual registry is the men judging them. PLEASE do not misconstrue what I am saying as NOT all judges are created equal because just as they come in all sizes , shapes and forms so do their interpretations of what is seen and or heard and in weighing it to whatever the set of standards are for that specific registry. Are we NOT back to the basis of my original posts of subjectivity and opinion rather than an absolute or a science? I think you even agreed that it was "all opinion" so how did I use that as a slight? I stated exactly that and have always done so in anything I have ever posted about beagling and even have stated I have NOT seen an boni-fide expert as of yet. I see a lot of opinions and so far from all of those opinions I have yet to see anyone be able to consistently produce the best even when they have titled dogs. I do see some kennels that do win and title dogs consistently from a line and even some outside that specific line. Knowing what I do know about the game I totally understand the time and effort it takes to get that done as a dogs potential is never brought out with them sitting in cage. The bottom line in this entire conversation is the end game of how do we get there. I have stated many, many times that when I trialed I TOTALLY understood and accepted the FACT that my dog as well as every other dog in the hunt was being judged subjectively even though in UKC nite hunts there are objective rules for awarding of the points which should determine the best of that hunt. YES, I understand that running a beagle in the day light is totally different than a coon hound at night BUT what they do has little bearing on how man perceives that. I guess that's why there are so many different formats in AKC where in nite hunts there are but one standard. It's been awhile since I hunted some PKC hunts but from what I can remember they were awarded points for the very same set of objectives with one more obstacle in the mix, MONEY rather than ribbons and trophys. I actually think you confirmed what I said when you said "Everything is opinion." I never said it was ALL bad and as hare chaser stated those of us who do not play the game with beagles are hoping that the vast majority have the same perception of what is the best as we rely on their OPINIONS for what we see in a pedigree. Of course along with what we see on paper we should see in the field in some form or another. If we can't see or hunt them then hopefully we can hunt some of their offspring to see what they are all about. I would expect the same from folks on these boards casting stones and making opinions about someone they do not know and have never seen. I have met few on these boards as I pretty much stay to myself and will say that all I have met were good guys and our opinions were NOT the same on many issues. ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.
First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common. Along with that, you posted on a public forum what seemed to be atleast slightly derogatory comments using "opinion" as the slight. Everything is opinion. It starts with the opinion of which pup, or which female to breed, or which stud to use. Then onto the opinion if the dog is or isn't good enough to compete after months and months if not years of training. Then the opinions of the judges at each and every trial that the dog is entered in. I find it blatantly ignorant that all those "opinions" that go into making an AKC field champion are looked down upon by some, especially those that have not participated in more than 1 or 2 trials if any at all. Then they log onto a public forum and express their "opinion" that dogs ran in Mid-West trials aren't hunted and cannot run on snow. Not only is it stupid and childish, it's totally false. So while you're being offended by personal attacks, they may have been brought on by your offenses, even if not intended.
I am first and foremost a hunter, and always will be. My efforts to prepare hounds for trials are pale in comparison to many, but they are all in an effort to produce a better beagle. If you prefer to not test your hounds against other folks' that is absolutely your right to do so, but suggesting that trials are not productive, for lack of better words, is only your "opinion". Your opinion is wrong, but that is my opinion which I also have a right to express. Ultimately, no one puts more time, effort, and money into producing the best possible rabbit hounds than trialers do. To suggest that an individual can do a better job than the thousands entering beagles in trials will always be confronted on this site, and rightfully so.[/quote]
Pine Lakes, I take absolutely NO OFFENSE to someone giving their opinion which is exactly what you did and you are entitled to it. In keeping it real with what I posted, I also understand the time and effort getting a dog ready for a trail. Remember I used to competition coon hunt and did plenty of it for YEARS but some folks say that is NO experience in the trial game. So can we agree that I do know and understand what goes into that aspect of the game? You stated you did NOT agree with my ideology or visionary THEORY by saying " First off, other than being a competition with dogs owned by men, night hunts and AKC SPO trials have nothing in common" to which probably comes the rub between my ideology and many others that play the game. One BIG point that is failed to be brought into the discussion is HOW the best is derived at within these various competitions. Some have a point system awarded by judges(s) based upon specific actions as cited in a set of rules that they personally see or hear such as strike, opening, jumping, checking, losing or lack of opening in a timely manner, running the line and finally assuring the game is accounted for at the end of a circle or at the tree by personally seeing that game. Others have a set of traits that are judged without being awarded specific points for but rather at the total discretion of the judge(s). The one thing in common in ALL is that the means of determining the best of that specific trail be it AKC, UKC, or any other individual registry is the men judging them. PLEASE do not misconstrue what I am saying as NOT all judges are created equal because just as they come in all sizes , shapes and forms so do their interpretations of what is seen and or heard and in weighing it to whatever the set of standards are for that specific registry. Are we NOT back to the basis of my original posts of subjectivity and opinion rather than an absolute or a science? I think you even agreed that it was "all opinion" so how did I use that as a slight? I stated exactly that and have always done so in anything I have ever posted about beagling and even have stated I have NOT seen an boni-fide expert as of yet. I see a lot of opinions and so far from all of those opinions I have yet to see anyone be able to consistently produce the best even when they have titled dogs. I do see some kennels that do win and title dogs consistently from a line and even some outside that specific line. Knowing what I do know about the game I totally understand the time and effort it takes to get that done as a dogs potential is never brought out with them sitting in cage. The bottom line in this entire conversation is the end game of how do we get there. I have stated many, many times that when I trialed I TOTALLY understood and accepted the FACT that my dog as well as every other dog in the hunt was being judged subjectively even though in UKC nite hunts there are objective rules for awarding of the points which should determine the best of that hunt. YES, I understand that running a beagle in the day light is totally different than a coon hound at night BUT what they do has little bearing on how man perceives that. I guess that's why there are so many different formats in AKC where in nite hunts there are but one standard. It's been awhile since I hunted some PKC hunts but from what I can remember they were awarded points for the very same set of objectives with one more obstacle in the mix, MONEY rather than ribbons and trophys. I actually think you confirmed what I said when you said "Everything is opinion." I never said it was ALL bad and as hare chaser stated those of us who do not play the game with beagles are hoping that the vast majority have the same perception of what is the best as we rely on their OPINIONS for what we see in a pedigree. Of course along with what we see on paper we should see in the field in some form or another. If we can't see or hunt them then hopefully we can hunt some of their offspring to see what they are all about. I would expect the same from folks on these boards casting stones and making opinions about someone they do not know and have never seen. I have met few on these boards as I pretty much stay to myself and will say that all I have met were good guys and our opinions were NOT the same on many issues. ALL I can say is if one can NOT be viewed as having any knowledge or experience of a situation without never having participated in that precise thong then many are about to test their own theory when they go to the polls and vote for the next POTUS who as their main objective is to keep US safe as Commander-In-Chief but yet not a one of the candidates have spent a single second in the regular military let alone in the competition aspect of it called war. I guess they get judged by what they have read, or watched via films and videos and react to the opinion they form from that. There will be millions judging those candidates from what they see ,hear, believe and interpret from that.