Everybody's looking for something different.............

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I know what I want in a beagle and make my crosses accordingly,hoping to get the traits that the sire and dam and the grand parents have exhibited.
I like the bigger size beagles,want them to be very athletic,up on legs and built to run all day and have the stamina to do so.I like a hound of upper medium to fast foot that can trail accurately and knows where the point of loss is and snaps back to it quickly.A hound that uses it's mouth right--for me that means NO extra barks.I'd rather have them a tad on the tighter side as to one that's loose mouthed.I want hounds with an adequate nose for the conditions I routinely hunt/run in.
Beagles are trail hounds same as fox hounds,coon hounds,bear hounds,etc. and I expect them to be able to have enough nose to pursue their game and move it under most circumstances.You may call that a medium to maybe a bit better than medium nose.
I don't really have a need for what some refer to as a 'big nosed" beagle as I don't hunt when it's below zero and crust and ice or when it's 90+ and hasn't rained in weeks.I stay in the house when it's like that and the beagles stay in the kennel.
I guess if I had to kind of "classify" my hounds I'd say they probably most resemble what you see running in the Mid-West trials and some of the A.K.C. Large Pack on Hare trials.
Just a year ago I had bred my line bred Blue Ninja female to Canadian F.C. Threejays Jack's Fly Man.Just to give you a little background;both Fly Man's parents are International Field Champions,all four of his grand parents are I.F.C.'s and four of his great grandparents are I.F.C.'s with two of the others being Canadian F.C.'s.My female is a grand daughter to I.F.C. Reggie and and a grand daughter to his litter mate brother F.C. Turbo Charged Thunder Blue.No guarranty of quality just because of the pedigree but the pups definitely came from good stock.
These pups are just coming a year old this month and I'm extremely happy with the female I kept as she's showing all the characteristics I mentioned above.As the breeder I feel like I got it just right with this cross.
When I raise and sell pups I always try to stay in touch with the new owners to keep track of how the pups are turning out and over the past year I've gotten glowing reports on these.
Today I had to chuckle though as a guy from Louisiana that has a male and a guy from Kentucky that has a female happened to both call about an hour apart.
Their conversations were about the same.Guy from La. said"Man I do like this dog! He's the real deal.We done already killed couple hundred swamp rabbits in front of him and our dogs this winter.He don't run nothing but a rabbit.He got a big loud bawl and chop mouth and he's about 15" and a good looking dog.You can't hunt him down. He goes every time we hunt.I'm already thinking about breeding him to one of my good bitches".
Then he throws in his" BUT"........"He ain't really as fast as some of the other young dogs I'm hunting him with." That made me scratch my head as I knew my female and my running buddy's litter mate female showed plenty of foot and the parents were what I'd call footy dogs.I asked what the breeding was on some of these other dogs and when he told me I kind of got the picture .Some were out of what I call wind splitters and some have described that stud as "rough as a cob".
The more questions I asked the more I got the whole picture.He and his friends go down along the Gulf and the marshes and run 20 beagles or more at a time with a dozen guys and kill 50+ rabbits in a day.They shoot every rabbit that goes by,strays,multiple split races,etc.Sounded to me like they had dogs running in every direction.His complaint about this young male was he was too independent minded and too clean and too close in the checks.Said he spent too much time running his own rabbit.I think with so many rabbits in a place like that with dogs flying around all over the place all they want is a flushing dog????
Guy from Kentucky started right off bragging about his female.Repeated himself several times saying"She's fast,oh ya she can really fly on a rabbit.Is your female fast? Man, this one can really push one".Told me she ran real good on the snow when they had the big storm up there.Says she's got a good nose,about 14 1/2" inches,clear loud bawl and chop mouth and that he can run her 6 hours a day, several days in a row and she shows good bottom.Said he ran her by herself the other day and she locked on a rabbit for close to 2 hours and ran it almost check free.
Then he throws in his "BUT"........He's an A.R.H.A.Little Pack trialer and his complaint is that "she's too tight in the check area,she don't reach out there quick like.She ain't never going to score like that.And she 's running too much rabbit". I'm think to myself----you said she's wicked fast but runs too much rabbit and is too clean.........Hmmmm?
Hard to tell what folks are looking for these days.Guess it just depends on what perspective you're coming at with these beagles and how you use them.What trialing formats,conditions you hunt in,the way you gun hunt,what style of dog you like,etc.,etc.
From what I see at a year old It sounds like these dogs are exactly the kind I like.Fast ,accurate,clean and close.Who doesn't like beagles like that? But,I guess everybody's looking for something different.

[Baldhead99]

Well said!! One man junk is another man treasure. Just tell them to send them to bluetick up to Ohio and I'd be more than happen to run them for them.

[mn_beagleboy]

I use to believe a good dog is a good dog. I met a dog trainer who has good record with the amount of dog he is handling. He said he trys to train his dog to run the way he wanted. Believe it or not a dog is only as good as it's owner. You could give them the best dog in the world but if they are not up to the dog's level they will drag the dog down to their level.

[mn_beagleboy]

I use to believe a good dog is a good dog. I met a dog trainer who has good record with the amount of dog he is handling. He said he trys to train his dog to run the way he wanted. Believe it or not a dog is only as good as it's owner. You could give them the best dog in the world but if they are not up to the dog's level they will drag the dog down to their level.

I started trialing with a great dog but little knowledge. I turned a great dog into a normal hunting dog. It took me 3 year to figure out what I did wrong and started new way of training and conditioning. The dog was as good or even better than when i first got the dog due to age and experiences. I was able to finish the dog. The statement I made was about myself.

[Hare Chaser]

I use to believe a good dog is a good dog. I met a dog trainer who has good record with the amount of dog he is handling. He said he trys to train his dog to run the way he wanted. Believe it or not a dog is only as good as it's owner. You could give them the best dog in the world but if they are not up to the dog's level they will drag the dog down to their level.

"I started trialing with a great dog but little knowledge. I turned a great dog into a normal hunting dog. It took me 3 year to figure out what I did wrong and started new way of training and conditioning. The dog was as good or even better than when i first got the dog due to age and experiences. I was able to finish the dog. The statement I made was about myself.

So here's what I hope I understood you to say only worded a little differently:

You once had a good dog that you thought you were going to train how to run a rabbit or hare better but then you realized how foolish it was to think you could actually teach a hound how to run a hare or rabbit. Once you realized this and came to realize the dogs potential, you changed your strategy and changed the opportunities you were giving this hound to mature and develop his genetically inherited traits. By doing things like feeding it well, providing good physical care, not exposing it to trash runners, running it in a variety of weather conditions and terrain this dog matured to its fullest potential. In the end you came to realize just how much the dog actually taught you and how little you really had to do.

For me personally,I've learned far more from observing a really good dog do what he or she was born to do with its genetically predisposed inheritance. A handful of truly good hounds have humbled me and educated me by observing them become skilled at doing what they were bred to do. Man cannot train any hound how to run the scent of the game it pursues. Everything that hound does in terms of how it pursues its game was determined the moment it's mothers egg was fertilized. Done deal. Their human caretakers responsibility is to provide opportunity for them to develop to their fullest.

[Rcoff]

Like a prize fighter, a beagle still needs a training program.
Thanks,
Bob

[mn_beagleboy]

Like a prize fighter, a beagle still needs a training program.
Thanks,
Bob

This is exactly what I wanna said.

[warddog]

I use to believe a good dog is a good dog. I met a dog trainer who has good record with the amount of dog he is handling. He said he trys to train his dog to run the way he wanted. Believe it or not a dog is only as good as it's owner. You could give them the best dog in the world but if they are not up to the dog's level they will drag the dog down to their level.

"I started trialing with a great dog but little knowledge. I turned a great dog into a normal hunting dog. It took me 3 year to figure out what I did wrong and started new way of training and conditioning. The dog was as good or even better than when i first got the dog due to age and experiences. I was able to finish the dog. The statement I made was about myself.

So here's what I hope I understood you to say only worded a little differently:

You once had a good dog that you thought you were going to train how to run a rabbit or hare better but then you realized how foolish it was to think you could actually teach a hound how to run a hare or rabbit. Once you realized this and came to realize the dogs potential, you changed your strategy and changed the opportunities you were giving this hound to mature and develop his genetically inherited traits. By doing things like feeding it well, providing good physical care, not exposing it to trash runners, running it in a variety of weather conditions and terrain this dog matured to its fullest potential. In the end you came to realize just how much the dog actually taught you and how little you really had to do.

For me personally,I've learned far more from observing a really good dog do what he or she was born to do with its genetically predisposed inheritance. A handful of truly good hounds have humbled me and educated me by observing them become skilled at doing what they were bred to do. Man cannot train any hound how to run the scent of the game it pursues. Everything that hound does in terms of how it pursues its game was determined the moment it's mothers egg was fertilized. Done deal. Their human caretakers responsibility is to provide opportunity for them to develop to their fullest.

I agree with hare chaser 100% but I think folks get confused with the words. Training and teaching are two completely different things. Learning and honing are also two completely different things. Many species of animals are naturally MADE with the distinct ability to perform a specialized task. This is the predisposed inheritance of a breed. Beagles as all hounds are scent dogs and one will NOT teach a hound how to scent trail a single thing because man doesn't even possess the ability himself to do so. One can NOT teach what one does NOT know or have the ability to do. I get a big kick out of those who say they trained a dog to be the best and I agree with hare chaser that the only thing they did was to HONE what their creator made. They take the animal that has been put into captivity and allow it out of the pen to be exposed to the conditions as it would have been in it's natural environment had man not domesticated that animal. They then revert back to the survival of the fittest in nature and ALL man does is give them the opportunity to HONE those inherited instincts and then CONDITION their bodies and their minds to be the best THEY can be. If a beagle had the ability to LEARN how to pursue a rabbit exactly like man wanted then ALL the BUTS above in the original post would not even be a matter of concern as then trainer would merely train them to do whatever they wanted. Giving a hound the ability to EXPERIANCE in the wild, as in repetitively exposing them to ALL the things that have a bearing on them succeeding in the fittest to survive without man is NOT training in my book but rather allowing them to develop to their fullest potential. It reverts back to what is said that they learn nothing in a pen and that is because they are not given the opportunity to practice their trade, hone their mental and physical abilities that they were born with. Truth is that what they were born with and given the ability to hone are all those BUTS!

[SNOWDOGS1]

Dana, Tell the guy in KY that I'll take that female off his hands if she is as he described before he roughs her up by exposing her too much to the style dogs he likes. It makes me shake my head when I hear stories like that. It partly explains to me why I constantly see so many over competitive, rough hounds around. Not trying to ruffle any feathers, but some formats seem to be more concerned with speed over true running ability. That to me is a detriment to the true hunting beagle (JMHO). To each his own though and if that's what he likes, he is entitled to his preference. Personally I want a hound that just runs the rabbit without a lot of concern for what the pack is doing. I want them to pack, but not if they know they have the line and the pack is wrong and just mouthing. I'd like to know some of those guys that prefer a rougher type of hound. I can probably help them fill their kennel with some. I have had my share of those hounds and many friends have also. You are certainly right when you say "everybody's looking for something different".

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Well put both Harechaser and Warddog.
We all have hounds that we wish had maybe a little more of this and a little less of that.If that's not the case then you are either fooling yourself or have the perfect dog.And after spending the past 50 years traipsing the woods with hounds on coon,bear,cat,and different species of rabbit/hare I can tell you perfect hounds don't exist.
You may"teach" your beagle not to run deer and fox by shocking him off them.You may "teach" him to come when called or to "down" when you want to catch him.You may "teach" him to be quiet in the kennel.But,nobody"teaches" their beagle how to run a rabbit.
As previously stated,that beagle's traits were genetically stamped when he was conceived.You are not going to turn a true U.B.G.F.type beagle into a footy,hard hitting,heads up hound and you won't get the traditional hare bred beagle to gear way down to stay down at a U.B.G.F. trial.You may encourage or discourage to a degree how they run, with the hounds you run them with but you're not going to change them.
There's an old saying up in the north country "ya can't get there from here".To get where you want you have to know where you're going.Truth is many, many beaglers buy pups or breed to studs and don't know much at all about the hounds except for the pedigree,trial records,or word of mouth or the new internet sensation.
How many times have we all seen folks say"papers don't run a rabbit,we don't make paper crosses,field trial wins aren't hereditary, my buddy says that dog is awesome,I heard he dominated at the trial last weekend,",etc. I would guess that a very large percentage of pups are bought and dogs are bred using exactly that criteria.
Don't think that's true? This litter of pups I raised last year I think proves it.I kept one and guy I run with regularly took one.At a year of age they are turning out almost exactly as I expected.The other pups were bought by folks that 1 didn't know me,2 never have hunted with me,3 had never hunted with the sire [Fly Man] or really knew anything about him except maybe his pedigree or F.C. status, 4 didn't know anything about my female and had never seen her go, 5 never asked for any references about other pups I've sold, 6 never inquired about any of the other dogs in the pedigree,7 the only thing they seemed interested in was how fast would they be?
Years ago I had a very well bred Bluetick coon hound.He made Nite Champion and won the New Hampshire State Championship High Scoring Hound.I had guys come from out of state to breed to him.NONE of them ever went to the woods with him to see him tree a coon.Didn't have time I guess?? I guess they were more impressed with the 4' trophy in the kennel room or his pedigree or the Nite Champion title??
It's no wonder people get pups or a litter and later say BUT..............
Know what you're buying or breeding to,know who you're dealing with and what their knowledge of the dogs is, do a little research and have knowledgeable expectations of what to expect in that pup purchase or coming litter.
Genetics loads the gun but environment pulls the trigger.
As always JMHO

[outrider66]

I love your coonhunting story Shady ! I had a buddy that won the all plott hunt at plott days one year in holmesville oh. that win finished her into nite champion
the next day he had guys all over him wanting a pup out of her and all they knew about the dog was that she won the previous night! He suggested that they talked
to another guy about some pups and of course they asked why ! And he told them 'Because hes got a coondog !!! lol
As far as training dogs go ! ive always considered myself as just transportation for a dog , the more ability he shows me the more rides he gets to the woods !
and ive found that the more ability a dog has the less correction is needed !

[Rcoff]

Mn_beagleboy, I thought that's what you meant.

[billy boy]

Mr. Shady I'll put my dogs down with any ones except fighters. fri. 3-4-16 was a great day ran pretty much solid for over 4 hrs. one of those days when you want the rabbit to hole up so you can get the dogs in. very proud of the dogs. went today, got a late start a little after 9 central time. same hounds barking too much trying to make something out of nothing. the temp went from heavy frost at 7 am. to about 50 deg. at 9:00 , i managed to get on 1 swamper and had 1 good run so i guess it turned out ok. it is odd how you can run hounds 1 day and they look nearly perfect and on another , your'e thinking about something different but somehow i believe most these so called super dogs are alot of hype and bs. i think they also have bad days too. jmo.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Billy Boy
I wanted to quote you from your post"I believe most these so called super dogs are a lot of hype and bs.I think they have bad days too".
Sir,from my personal experience I'd have to say that you make a very good point.We've all heard folks say"I believe the best dog [ rabbit dog/coon dog ] is tied out behind somebody's barn and no one's ever heard of him".
Forty years ago when I was keeping tree hounds and going to competition Nite Hunts I subscribed to Full Cry magazine.I read all those full page ads about this super hound and that super hound and I just wondered why I didn't have a super hound like all those guys did.The ads all seemed to be from the mid-west or southern states and I figured they were the coon hound meccas and had to have much better hounds than us old New England coon hunters.
The fellow I hunted with was much older than me and he'd traveled the competition circuit quite a bit back in his day.He kept telling me that my dogs were just as good as most of those I saw in the magazines but I just couldn't believe it.Man,I just really wanted to have me one of those super hounds too.
My friend ended up moving down here to Tn. and over the next 10-12 years I made many trips down here from N.H. to hunt with him.
One year on my way south I stopped at a coon club in West Virginia to take in a Nite Hunt they were holding.There was 10 inches of snow on the ground and the temps. were mid teens.Coons were in their den trees and not moving much.Out of 32 dogs entered in the hunt my old Drum dog treed the only coon seen that night by any cast,won the hunt and I've still got the trophy.
Later that week,went to Georgia to hunt with an old man that was a member of our breeder's association and he had a rep. for having some pretty good hounds and he wasn't very humble about it either.In fact at the dinner table that night before we went to the woods to hunt he was bragging on several of his hounds.
We hunted a big peanut field with a big swamp along one side.It was a cold,frosty night and Drum and two of Robert's hounds had hunted hard for about an hour without a strike.We circled back to the truck and Robert's Rocky Top and Warrior came in to be loaded up.Robert said those Georgia coons just weren't moving on a night like that and we were wasting our time and loaded his hounds.Couple minutes later we heard Drum open deep in the swamp and it wasn't long before he treed.
Robert said he didn't believe that dog had a coon treed and his two never opening down in there at all.We walked 15 minutes in to Drum's tree and he had the proof sitting on a limb.Ole Robert was so put out he wouldn't speak to me just cause my dog treed a coon while both his were in the dog box.
Several years later I had the opportunity to stay and coon hunt with Mr.T.C. Jones in Duck Hill,Mississippi.Now back then T.C. was a BIG name in the coon hound business.Usually had a full page ad in the Full Cry magazine every month advertising his stud dogs or litters out of them.
He had 100's of acres,a bunkhouse for visiting hunters to stay in and kennels for our hounds.I felt like I was staying with coon hunting royalty and playing in the big time.
At dinner he informed us that tonight he would be hunting a 3 year old female that he had just turned down $4,000. for [this was a ton of $ for a hound in 1885 ].I had a 2 year old female named Babe with me and although I thought she was a pretty nice young hound I was totally intimidated by just the thought of putting her out with T.C.'s $4,000. super hound.
My buddy Frank told me to just relax,turn her loose and let her do her thing.We hunted several hours and treed three coons and Babe had first tree on all three coons in front of T.C.'s dog.When we got back to the bunkhouse T.C. made me an offer on Babe which I turned down.It wasn't even close to $4,000.He said he couldn't pay that as she wasn't his breeding???
Five years ago I had just finished up two weeks of hare hunting in Vermont and in Maine.My three females had run 12 out of 14 days and were looking a bit on the ragged side.
Claremont Beagle Club was holding their licensed Large Pack on Hare trial.I used to be a member there but hadn't been there in 16 years so decided I'd go and enter my dogs.Even though none of them had ever been in a Large Pack trial before and I didn't know if any of them had enough gas left in the tank to compete.
A licensed A.K.C. Large Pack trial MUST be run a minimum of 3 hours to qualify.After that it's judges decision.Dogs were turned loose at 8:00 A.M. and field trial was called at 4:30 P.M.= 8 1/2 hours of running.My Rainy dog took first place,my Dixie dog was awarded third place and Sierra didn't place but stayed down with the winner's pack.
My two females ended up placing that day ahead of two very good hounds owned by two of the Large Pack on Hare trials most well known folks and whose names or kennels would be instantly recognizable if I mentioned them.They also placed ahead of a Field Champion whose picture later graced the cover of Better Beagling magazine.
I don't recount any of these stories to puff up hounds that I've owned.I never thought of any of them as "super dogs".They were definitely "good" dogs that got the job done and I have enjoyed them immensely over the years.Truth of the matter is that the true"super" dogs are quite rare.
I'm now old enough to remember when many hound's reputations were embellished in full page ads in the hound publications.Folks used to say"paper will hold still for anything you want to put on it" and yes,some of these hounds were so hyped or bs'ed that they became bigger than life.
Now here we are in the age of inter-net and instant info. treated as gospel.Better hold on tight !
Many beaglers out there have good hounds that are quite often the equal to many of those "super" hounds we so often hear about.
If you have good hounds,running grounds,friends to enjoy them with and good health then you are truly blessed.

[BCBeagles]

I will say from personal experience. I have owned(bought) 4 FC's....ran with several others. I have one near FC(has the points, not the wins, lacks two wins), and other Midwest and NMHA places on other hounds here.

I have yet to see ONE that DOES NOT have a bad day...these FC's seem to have less bad days, but maybe that's why they finished......BUT they have bad days....

Not all about about hype. I believe a FC hound has more good days than the average dog..it's about expectations and the fact that MANY, MANY folks interpret speed, check area, line control, and hunt SO VERY differently......

Someones fast may be anothers medium....someones medium may be someone else's fast....hunt interpretation varies as well....if a dog does not jump rabbits I personally don't care how hard they hunt...JMO....that to me is "stay gone" or "very busy"....there job is to find rabbits not just look like they are doing that..if they don't jump rabbits close to me then they need to look further..and so on an so forth. I will move them to areas where rabbits are there job is then to find them not just cover ground "bird dog style".....some days the " bird dog style" works.....others not so much.


SO MANY interpret speed by the movement of the dog, ex...cutting, swinging, slashing....that is not SPEED on the track...that is cheating to get the track and pure athleticism. I only relate speed to how fast they can accurately move the track....and STAY in the track as much as possible....

These are my opinions.....that and a quarter won't get you a cup of coffee....lol.

I have said this before and I will say it again...if you don't go see the dogs first hand you are truly not getting an evaluation...you are simply getting an opinion....