FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)

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fulcount
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:23 am
Location: North Creek NY

Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by fulcount »

A good post Shady could not have said it better myself
in a few words LOL

John O

LaMarr Rhoades
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by LaMarr Rhoades »

How many of ya'll own dogs that don't have any field champions in their pedigree?
good dogs run on good days,great dogs run when u take them out

Newt
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by Newt »

LaMarr Rhoades wrote:How many of ya'll own dogs that don't have any field champions in their pedigree?
How far back? Almost every beagle that is registered accurately will have Field Champions and maybe show Champions if you go back far enough.

How far back would you have to go on a Mid West field champion to find Traditional Brace Champion?
Filed Champion Wilcliffe Boogie was the start of the Walkie Talkie Pearson Creeks and his Son FC Wilcliffe Bannister was in a lot of the LP Hare Champions of the day.

LPH Champions were brought to the deep south in the 70s to resurrect beagles as a hunting dog from the Trial monopoly. Many of the UBGF dogs can be traced back to Weir Creek, Northway. Wingate, crossed on the Traditional Brace, Pearson Creek and Limbo.

LaMarr Rhoades
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by LaMarr Rhoades »

I remember back when I was a kid,we use to have a few dogs that were strictly cottontail bred that didn't have field champions in their pedigree,they were okay rabbit dogs but they were slow an mouthy. I would say 4 or 5 generations back would be far enough Newt,just curious if any of ya'll currently own dogs that don't have any field champions within 4 or 5 generations.
good dogs run on good days,great dogs run when u take them out

Newt
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by Newt »

Several years, when I was a young man, a buddy and I went up to Upper Hudson to their License Trial. LPH. He had ran Hare before and knew of the demands that running LPH so he borrowed a few dogs to take along. He got two bitches from a guy in Kentucky, think his name was Kevin Hurt. That was back when John New and Larry Carter were big into the Mid West. One of the bitches was by Dingus McCrae and the other was backyard bred and didn't have a recognizable name in her pedigree. I handled the bitches in a class of over seventy little bitches. The pack split with the Dingus McCrae bitch in one pack and the noname bitch in the other. The McCrae bitch got no score, she was in the wrong pack, after the split. The No name bitch lasted until the end but didn't place. I asked the judge if she got a score and the told me he had her placed 7th. I was impressed with that bitch before the trial and after. Seventh out of seventy ain't bad for a dog bred to run cottontails and the first time to run Hare.

To answer your question, I have dogs with FC in their pedigree. I had a FC Bucks Branch Kalagha, Trudy (now deceased)and bred her back FC Bucks Branch Englebert, and got Bertie. Both good bitches, but the best bitch that I have ever owned, Trudy's grandmother, was a grand daughter of FC Sunkenland's Sparky. However the bitch side of the pedigree was Gay Deal, Charley's, Ranger, and on back to Pearson Creek. Non of them were Field Champions but that is the stuff that I like and have have been successful in retaining. I doubt seriously that I will ever breed to a FC again.

outrider66
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by outrider66 »

Shady ive hunted with Dale Brandenburger several times and I can tell you he had some good male dogs ! but they didn't reproduce that well !
one of my better males came from him. but I think it was an exception !I am the breeder of dual gr ch kyles redwood rock he was a good young dog ! when I sold him and
can be found in many of todays plott hound pedigrees. 72824
EIGHTH ,ST ,RD IS MY ADRESS FASTONE COME ON DOWN ! Fastone ! I'm packin heat on the end of my lead strap !!! Rider is( in the game ) 300 days a year !!!!
we aint talkin here were huntin !
Last edited by outrider66 on Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

outrider66
Posts: 276
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by outrider66 »

WELLS WOODS you are welcome to come run with me any time from late January through feburary ! that's the only time that counts too me ! if they cant get it done
then solo they are junk ! and should not be bred !!!!! do you agree?????? I would love to see your dog run solo! I bet he would realy open my eyes !!! In harsh winter
conditions ! & ps why aren't you attacking jerry eversoles post in them trialing results????????

WELLS WOODS
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by WELLS WOODS »

I don't have near the quality I had a few years ago & that was only Prime Time, Silver Spring & a little later, Valentine. I had a good thing going until I got married in 2007. She didn't care about dogs or anything much except, shopping, sex, spending money & smoking weed. I wish her the best, but she was the reason I sold all of my good prospects. I tried to make my marriage work, but it was doomed for failure; looks isn't everything when choosing a wife. Now I'm back at the thing I love more than anything. beagling. I love every aspect of it from raising pups, starting, training, pleasure running, trying to get the best out of each hound. I will be culling hard. I try not to get attached to any pups until I know they are going to have what it takes in the field. They don't have to be FC's; just solid, hard hunters, clean mouths, brains, enough nose to be able to run in tough conditions , desire & of course, near perfect conformation. Straight legs, athletic movement, up on their toes & quick on their feet, perfect bites, large skulls, enough ear length, no sway backed looking dogs, etc. They must also have good loud mouths, preferable a chop, but a squall is fine too.
Outrider, I'm sure you have a nice hound or two, probably good enough to trial. I know you don't trial, but you talk about them enough, I think you will give it a whirl before long. Most judges are hunters like everybody else. They try to be honest hopefully. There is a lot of bad people out there, but still a lot of great ones too. Mike McGuffey is one of the best guys I've ran into in the beagle world. I placed my first dogs under him & George Steeves in 1993; 4th & NBQ in the 13" females. What a happy boy I was that day. Those were the first two dogs that I really ran hard & tried to get ready for trials. I ended up putting a win on both of them & sure enough another woman convinced me I didn't need them so I got about 2 grand for them. What a happy girl & sad boy. I would recommend Mike to judge today. I think he stays in shape & definitely knows more about hounds than most of us. The dogs I have now are a tough above average, but have the breeding I have a lot of confidence in of maybe producing a few really nice hounds. I'm going to try several different crosses with similar blood & try to give the Lord a lot of credit if I have any success instead of my great breeding knowledge. We beaglers need to stick together & have fun doing everything honestly as far a judging the hounds. I wouldn't mind getting back into judging. My knees seem to be doing allright & an X-Ray of my lungs looked great so the doc took me off the bloodthinners. My number is 606-364-3929. I'm no judging genius. I just give a strong effort, I like line control hounds with foot, hunt & close checkwork. Anyone can come and ask me about their dog & I'll gladly tell them everything I saw out of it.
Wells Woods Kennel
Greg Wells

R.I.P.
FC Brent's Prime Time
FC Wells' Silver Spring
FCGD Wells Woods Valentine

Strange Daze Axle
Talkabout Cleo

outrider66
Posts: 276
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by outrider66 »

I can relate to that . I sold dual gr ch kyles redwood rock over a bad woman ! what was I thinking ?????? :bash:

Aubrey Holcombe
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

I sure do enjoy your wisdom, and I even agree with Lot's of what you have to say, especially "This" last article, Keep Up the good work, No wonder they Pay you so well,, but on the other hand I personally Know the owner of this web Sight,, Miss Bev. and she has the Green Stamps to burn !!

Like they say you get what you Pay For Ever-time!!

Keep Looking Up!

d.r.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>> :dance:
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

warddog
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Location: Jasonville, Indiana

Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by warddog »

Shady Grove Beagles wrote:Hey Sparkey
Having you on here it's almost like having a pen pal.LOL.
I totally agree with you in regards to the importance of field trials and Field champions bringing forth top performing hounds in to the public's eye so they can be used for breeding.
I also am in total agreement to the influence they have and do play in the sport of beagling and the education value of helping us all to evaluate blood lines.
Be that as it may,I can relate to mybeagles when he states " truth be told,I don't really care for field trials...... I'd rather run dogs all weekend".My sentiments exactly !!
Before folks jump all over me and think I don't know what the trialing scene is all about .When I got out of the tree hounds and competition Nite Hunting and back in to beagles in 1992 I traveled around the Large Pack on Hare trial circuit a fair amount in New Hampshire,Vermont,Maine and Massachusetts.Even won the New Hampshire-Vermont Association Derby Championship Trial one year.
Moved to Tennessee in 1995 and soon got my A.R.H.A. Little Pack judges license and then my Master of Hounds license. Judged regularly at the three clubs in middle Tn. and have judged casts at the Tennessee,Kentucky and Mississippi State Hunts and served as the Master of Hounds at a State hunt.
Newt in his recent post made a tongue-in-cheek joke that actually hit home to me and kind of has to do with the mind set of some who have posted here and a mind set that I've seen often in other threads.
That being that if you are not a field trialer,a winner of field trials or at least a participant in field trials,don't have Field Trial Champions,pups out of Field Trial Champions,have never judged a field trial, never really put your dog to the "test" in a field trial,etc.,etc. than you can't possibly have a clue or any idea at all about what a top dog or even a GOOD dog is.
REALLY ? REALLY ? Those that appear to believe that, are ya all really serious? How totally puffed-up,self serving and lame that thinking is !
In the past nine years I've entered a total of four trials,In 2007 I entered a young female that had never been to a trial in her life in the Southern Large Pack Championship at Mel Faust's in Louisiana.After six hours of running she took a 4'th.In 2011 I entered three females that had never ever been trialed in Claremont New Hampshire's Beagle Club's Licensed Large Pack on Hare Trial where we ran the hounds for 8 1/2 hours before they called field trial.I took 1'st and 3'rd and my other female stayed down in the winners pack but did not place.The other two trials were Mid-West trials where they judged on horseback.I brought a nice young female that had never ever seen a horse before and she just couldn't handle the horses running near her.My fault .
Because I'm no trialer could I not see what the hounds were doing?Did the results not speak for themselves?Did my hounds pass the test?
At the risk of bursting somebody's bubble.If you were to do the research you'd find that beagle trialing is not the epicenter of beagling that some seem to think it is.In America just plain rabbit gun hunters and pleasure runners whether it be cottontails,hare or swampers FAR,FAR,FAR out number those who participate in beagle field trials.I would guess that the number of folks who actively trial beagles is a very small percentage of those who keep beagles for pursueing rabbits .Heck,last time I saw stats on it from A.K.C. I believe that the Traditional Brace entries still out number both the Large Pack and S.P.O. entries.And T.B. aren't even REAL hunting dogs !
There are many,many long time ,dedicated and knowledgeable houndsmen who have NEVER been to or participated in any kind of a field trial !
My friend Harechaser from N.H. is one of the most knowledgeable houndsmen I know of concerning tree hounds and beagles used on hare and especially those that qualify as a true "snow hound" and he's never entered a trial.The fellow he has coon hunted and hare hunted with for years and knows more about hounds than most has never entered a trial.Fellows I know and hare hunt with in New Hampshire and Maine own some very nice hounds and have never entered any trials.Back in the day most all the coon hunters I knew hunted for hides and the check at the fur buyer's shed and laughed at those who chased"those plastic trophies".They never entered competition hunts.The old fellows that I cat and bear hunted with for years never needed any trials to tell them what dog would pull hair and put the bear in the tree.Most of the beaglers I run into around here have nothing to do with field trials.In fact over the years it has been my experience that many,many beaglers have expressed the thoughts or feelings that they don't want anything to do with field trial beagles.
I witnessed a State Hunt where the dog was crowned State Champion and they never ran a rabbit in the final cast.Hunting and handling.And owner now had bragging rights.
An A.K.C. trial where no dogs could put a circle on the rabbit that day but 1-NBQ. was awarded and a win and points were taken home.
Been to more than one A.K.C. field trial where the hounds rioted on deer and handlers scattered throughout the woods trying to catch them.At the end of the day there was a hound with his first place win and points toward his champion degree.
When I ran Large Pack on Hare trials I can't begin to tell you how many big name trialers and big name trialing hounds had NEVER EVER been run outside of a fenced enclosure or EVER had a rabbit killed in front of them !
I can take you to one of the biggest field trial winning kennels here in Tn. that have two of those storage buildings that the Menonites sell [the big ones ] absolutely packed with trophies and ribbons,plaques,clocks and every other symbol of winning there is.And you know what? Those folks don't hunt at all.
Haven't for years ! Most of their champion hounds have NEVER heard a shotgun or seen a dead rabbit !
Now I know I'm just an old guy on a rant here....... but when I see and hear some folks say that unless you are judging your hounds by field trialing you haven't put them to the "test" and how can you "Know" if they are any good or not?Too many scenarios like those mentioned for me to take every hound with F.C. before his name as quality.
And John O. The reason my posts have gotten so long lately as a dues paying member of the AFL-CIO union member of the Tennessee Fiction writers guild and under contract to this inter-net site I am required to generate a certain amount of material for which Iam payed for by the word.And payed for quite handsomely I might ad.LOL.
As always,anything and everything is JMHO.
Shady, I agree with what you have posted 100%. I will also say that you and I must be of the same generation as my trialing experience came from the coon hound world over many years and in fact my first real hounds were out of ole "Finley River Chief!" Yes, I know and have hunted against many of those you named including Dave Deans Northern Blue Hammer until I could not count as high as there were Northern Blue Hammers. I was just involved in a similar thread not long ago and folks tried to make the case that one can not have any knowledge of what trials are about UNLESS they have actually participated and or judged them specifically. That takes me to your above reply of REALLY, REALLY ...! A trial is a competition of man against man using the dogs as tools and minus a set of objective steadfast standards it is relegated to opinion. The so-called Steadfast standards are then also left to personal opinion of what an individual witnessed and whether they like it or not subject to what they like or dislike. In the coon hunting world one would think that the written objective point system of determining the best of a cast whether plus, minus or circle would be absolutely cut and dried, leaving nothing to opinion..................WRONG! I have witnessed judges go deaf and blind at the drop of a hat and then miraculously gain tunnel vision so that they could see inside a hole in a tree. You make very good points and back them with documentation to bolster what you claim and I agree with it all. Of course I have been told I am not considered an experienced beagler and I guess that derives from me not attending many beagle trials even though I have actually followed hounds for 55+ years. I have judged many a hounds in my time and NEVER have I had to run behind one to know whether it was fit for me to feed or not and if I have to I don't need the hound! I also agree that I have always line bred hounds although I believe that making a cross is like spinning a roulette wheel, having the genetics of a specific line narrows the possibilities of getting those traits we are looking for BUT it also allows for the ones we are NOT looking for to pop to the top, maybe even back more than several geneartions! Keep posting Shady as I am picking up what you are lying down just like I would with E.F. Hutton!

beaglestotrack
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:24 am

Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by beaglestotrack »

Seen some fc that would sit around till the rabbit was jumped and then they would get in there and own the race. To me being a hunter this is not what I call a rabbit dog. First thing first it all starts with hunt. If they cant go jump a rabbit I dont care how good they can run one

LaMarr Rhoades
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Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by LaMarr Rhoades »

LaMarr Rhoades wrote:Just curious if any of ya'll currently own dogs that don't have any field champions within 4 or 5 generations of their pedigree?
good dogs run on good days,great dogs run when u take them out

sammiller03
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:30 pm
Location: GRANTSVILLE, MD

Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by sammiller03 »

All the patch dog's I owned didn't have a fc in their six gen pedigree
Millers Old Line Kennel
Grantsville, Md.

LaMarr Rhoades
Posts: 1108
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

Post by LaMarr Rhoades »

Cool,I've never owned a Patch hound,but I've seen some run in ARHA Little Pack.
good dogs run on good days,great dogs run when u take them out

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