FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

[warddog]

Judges are not hired to give their OPINIONS but to judge what runs best accorrding to a set of rules
on a givrn day its not an OPINION but a fact as to what the hound is doing they are hired to judge
in a objective and honest manner according to these rules if they have to give their OPINONS they are not seeing
enough hound work to make an OBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT
you can try to make an argument as to judging by OPINION but you are dead wrong in that thinking
the judges should see enough hound work to evaluate them and not give their OPINIONS

John O

YES John, you are right that there are objectives that must be met and the rules are the rules BUT the written word is SUBJECTIVE in it's application. You are also correct in the judges are hired to judge by those objectives BUT the mere definition of "JUDGE" is to form an opinion. An opinion is a view, a judgement or an appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter. I will absolutely agree with everyone that if the competition of beagles or any hound that is within eyesight of the judge the entire time where 100% of the work of all competitors is and can be viewed then what one sees is an absolute objective. A horse race is pretty much an absolute, a basket made in a basketball game is absolute, a field goal leaves nothing to the imagination. Bosses are hired to rate employees on their actual work performance, judges are hired to give their OPINION on their interpretation of the word of law. Funny how there are 9 judges of the SCOTUS and they seldom render a decision where all 9 have interpreted the exact same evidence in the same manner. GUESS what their decision is also called an OPINION. FACT is, something that is the same 100% of the time and YES in a perfect world under the exact same set of objectives one would think the science would come to the top and be the same in the eyes of all viewing the same evidence BUT that is just not true and if one believes that you are dead wrong. Another prime example is the words within the bible, those words and OBJECTIVES have been read by millions of people over hundreds of years and seems there is more interpretation of the application of the objectives than Cod has Liver pills. GUESS what they all believe theirs is the ONLY and right one! It is absolutely impossible to remove subjectivity from the eyes or minds of humans. YES, I will and have agreed that many, many try their best to do so but when the objective is not clear cut as a ball going into the basket or between the goal post the door is open to subjectivity of man or opinion of what they saw and interpreted which may not be what you or I interpreted what we saw. One of the best examples of this that I have read is the common discussion as to what 15" is. That is a pretty cut and dried objective to me BUT evidently it is NOT. There seems to be a lot of judgement of how one gets to the determination of size even using a tool meeting specific requirements or rules and it seems to be deduced to an opinion rather than a fact or else the result of the very same dog measured under the very same specific tool would be the same 100% each and every time. The rule is objective but the application and or interpretation is subjective when it is not applied the same by 100% of those judging 100% of the time. Even though many, many try to be as objective as they can there are numerous times when things are not able to be seen when subjectivity is applied and circumstances apply the evidence in the eye of the beholder. AGAIN, I understand the concept in a perfect world but I have not witnessed a perfect dog or person for that matter let alone a perfect world.

[sparky]

Here we go again,arguing with a guy that has Never been to a Field Trial. The judges write down what they see,if they don't see it then they obviously cant write it down,if they see a dog pick up a Check they write it down,if they have a marked line they write down what they see,if they see a dog jump a rabbit they write it down,if they see a dog make a turn when other dogs blow over the end they write it down,if they see a dog swing,skirt,backtrack,give extra tongue in the check,blow over the end an keep tonguing,lay false lines,etc etc they write it down,if a dog continues to be disrupted to the pack an causing breakdowns then they'll pick that dog up. Of course they don't see 100% but they write down what they do see,and if they don't feel like they seen enough then they'll keep running them until they do see enough.

Like I've said before, Why not have the judges stand back with the gallery an give their opinion on what dogs they thought did the best job an go home? I don't think that would work out very well,judges are there to go by what they see not to give their opinions. Most judges will show you their score card if you ask them to see what they had on your dog. Experienced beaglers understand that Nobody is gonna see everything,but that doesn't mean you cant see enough of the houndwork to place the 5 best dogs of that day if your doing your job which is going by what you see an not just giving your opinion.

Nobody is claiming that field trials are perfect,if you don't like trials then you don't have to go,but you don't have that problem cause you've never been to them anyway. I really cant understand why I continue to argue with you,kinda like arguing with somebody at work that's trying to tell me how to do my job,but they've never done it before,"Pointless".

[fulcount]

Very
good post Sparky you covered it all in My OPINION

John O

[outrider66]

Putting a long hard season on a dog solo will tell me more about a dog than any rule book can imo. How else do you know what you have ?????? I wouldn't be afraid to bet
that theres some fc out there that I would breed one of my females too . but I bet theres even more I wouldn't breed too. just because someone has or purchased an fc doesnt
mean I would like that dog if I hunted him or her every day ........... ever think about that ????? It seems to me that most guys on this board that are playing percentages
and buying dogs are saying that if you don't breed too a fc you don't have anything going on ! REALY??? ive heard don't breed to ole blue down the road ! ive heard breed
to an IFC &ive heard theres an army coming !! now I got to say I'm well aware of all the fc that's been produced by these kennels! the numbers are amazing ! but cmon
you got to spend time in the woods with your dog every day before you know what you got! I wonder if a lot of these guys have ever raised a dog from a pup and hunted it
enough to finish out to be the best it could be ???? or if they just buy dogs ??? I'm guessing they dont spend as much time in the woods as some of us do !!!! and aint got
any better dogs than most of us !! me personaly I got just dogs ! run to catch type like many others do!!!!

[Hare Chaser]

I love to hear a hound do it solo and for me personally a hound that can't/won't do it solo won't stay here. However, there was a day when I didn't appreciate all that a dog that was both a good trial dog and a good gun dog brings to the table. The latter I believe is what our forefathers intended when they established the definition AKC has in place for a true hunting beagle. I love to watch a "true run to catch " type beagle do its thing and I've owned a couple in the last 39 years. However I've grown to greatly appreciate the hound that can truly destroy a pack from the middle by simply hanging tight in the check area staying calm when everybody else is racing around. Often it seems, this type of hound isn't as flashy as the wind splitter on the good days and isn't noticed as quickly or appreciated until they have about worn the rest of the pack out checking them to death. I've only run cotton tail once in all the years I've had hounds so I can't really speak much about that. But I can tell you it can take the air out of your sails when you have the run to catch, flashy dog that gets worn out at the end of the day by the more level headed blue collar hound that just goes about the business of doing what it was bred to do. These days I'm more about finding the balanced hound that is consistent day in and day out. Knock the trials all you want and those who participate in them but men and women are just like the hounds we seek. There are always a few that stand head and shoulders above the rest. Some of these folks love the competition trials and some just want a good hunting dog. At the end of the day the dedicated few from both camps are after the same thing. Hounds that consistently produce game day in and day out in most conditions and can be shot, with the gun or in my case, the video camera. Truly top hounds come from both sides of the fence but they don't come in bunches like grapes!!

[warddog]

Great post hare chaser and exactly my opinion. Seems folks do not want to admit that it is all about opinions. If it were FACT it would then be a science and EVERYONE of us would be hunting the BEST rabbit dog there is. Fact means that the same set of circumstances renders the same consistent results time after time. There are good and bad dogs on good and bad days. There are also good and bad judges decisions as well and that may or may not be a matter of just being bad but NOT being able to see it all, therefore making a decision on what was seen, good bad or in between. Now for those who seem to think I have NEVER been to a beagle trail YOU are wrong I just have not been to one in every format. NO, I do not trail beagles but have spectated in UKC and bought several dogs from a man that used to be the local AKC beagle club president, until he passed away. Knew him for years and also spent several hours with him both running dogs in his enclosure as well as having him start several pups for me. I am also not arguing but merely stating my opinion from what I have not only seen but have heard as well as read right here on these beagle boards. I am also NOT knocking trialing as there are many, many good dogs that have titles just as there are many, many others that have them too. I just do not have the opinion that a title in front of a dogs name denotes a good hound let alone a TOP hound. I also do NOT have the opinion that a title in front of a person's name denotes a good let alone a TOP employee in their trade. If one is a journeyman, has a BA, masters, PHD etc they have merely spent the time in training but may or may not have the knowledge, skill, ability or desire to actually perform the job day in and day out. That can be for many reasons and the supervisor or some other entity will probably form an opinion or JUDGE that which may even include a personal preference of something outside of the actual job performance at hand. YES, the job has objectives to be met but many ways of getting them accomplished. What I will say is dogs as well as people that perform at a CONSISTENT level are those that come to the top and not merely because they have a title in front of their name but because they have proven it again and again and again. YES, I have titled dogs in the dogs pedigree I keep but NOT because of the title in front of their name but rather because that line is what I found that suits my opinion of the kind of rabbit dog I like for the terrain I hunt. I would guess there are hundreds of others that feel the same as many have and look for the same line I have kept for years after we could NOT find any locally bred lines that HUNTED as we like. Sure they could run a rabbit after we jumped it but lacked the hunt we desired. The line I found years ago was after we saw a female hunt and run then bought her because she had the hunt we were looking for and did a nice job running a rabbit. She was NOT a titled dog and didn't fit into the trailers style of dog they ran but fit exactly into ours. She wasn't one of nor was she of the linage that my AKC president friend ran and wasn't of that style either. Upon looking over her papers we noticed that she was doubled up on a specific line and we have kept that same line for probably 20 years. Lots of good dogs have came out of that line in the trials as well as hunters which boils down to opinion, mine and evidently many others! I bought what I considered a good dog that just so happened to come with a pedigree of a great bloodline but that was unbeknown to us at the time. I doubt my ole local AKC president friend would have thought much of her other than she could circle a rabbit back to the point of the jump and do it consistently.

[hard on a check]

I enjoy soloing a dog,I believe it keeps them sharp an focused,If ya'll think Field Trialers don't solo their dogs your wrong,Most trialers do solo their dogs,I've personally never seen a FC that couldn't circle a rabbit by itself,Most Field Trialers run their dogs year round (Spring,Summer,Fall,Winter) keeping their dogs in shape an tuned up,It's a lot of work to earn a FC title in AKC,it's not easy to get 3 Wins along with 120 points to become an FC, Just to give ya'll an example a dog only receives a point for every dog it beats that day,so if there's 30 dogs in the class then the winner gets 30 points,the 2nd place dog gets half a point which would be 15 points out of 30 dogs,3rd place gets a third which would be 10 points,4th place gets a quarter which would be 7 points, It takes time to accumulate 120 points with 3 wins,it could take a couple years to finish (if ever), there's been many hounds that had enough points,but couldn't get that 2nd or 3rd win,some have had enough wins but couldn't get to 120 points, so in order for a dog to become an FC it has to be fairly consistent,if any of ya'll think it's easy you should try finishing a dog once.

All of the field trialers that I personally know do gun hunt their dogs. (Ohio)

Just because a dog is a FC doesn't mean it's going to be a good producer,but there's only one way to find out.

The thing I find most interesting about this thread is a lot of the comments an statements that are being made about Field Trials & Field Champions are coming from people that don't trial.

[Hare Chaser]

I'm one that doesn't trial but I belong to a club that hosts AKC LPOH. I've belonged to this club for 21 yrs. We hold (2) trials a year, with one being AKC Licensed the other is not but still runs by AKC rules and judges. I've marshaled a bunch so I am not unfamiliar with what goes on.

[WELLS WOODS]

Right On Sparky; with your last post.

[warddog]

I'm one that doesn't trial but I belong to a club that hosts AKC LPOH. I've belonged to this club for 21 yrs. We hold (2) trials a year, with one being AKC Licensed the other is not but still runs by AKC rules and judges. I've marshaled a bunch so I am not unfamiliar with what goes on.

Not trialing beagles does NOT mean a person has never attended any beagle trials or been around those that have. One does NOT have to actually participate in them to understand the game. Many never played football but know the game, same goes for basketball or any other sport competition. FACTS are that most go into a trade having studied and watched it BUT NEVER having ever actually performing it. Another FACT is ALL that are participating in trials started doing so without ever having done it as well but evidently witnessed it from the sidelines. Evidently they saw enough that they came to the opinion that they liked it and many, many others have the opinion they don't put that much stock in them. I have stated and will again that they do have a great importance in notoriety especially for those of us that do NOT actually participate in them to see a lot of different dogs and lines. They give us some insight from the sidelines about a dog or a line that we may never have the opportunity to actually see. Many accept them for what they are, a competition among men and the results are not science but a dog or line that wins, continues to win and then their offspring wins sure serves up much data for those of us on the sidelines. I totally understand what it takes to put a title on a dog as that is the same for most any competition in about every sport. There is a lot more work in getting ready for the competition then there actually is in the competition itself. In the end on any given day or night in a trial one is asking for the host club to JUDGE or determine in their opinion the best animal of that competition and or whether the dogs entered are done so correctly such as registration or size in the case of beagles. The rules are established but in the end I totally understood that my dog was being judged in the eye of the beholder be it on the bench or in the field and EVERY rule book I have ever read makes that perfectly clear. They all state the DECISION of the judge(s) is final and these sites continue to have questions from situations asking how one would JUDGE a specific scenario with many, many different responses when if it were a science there should be but one correct answer per the written rule(s). ALL my OPINION and if it doesn't match up to yours so-be-it as it is what beagling or any hound hunting is OPINION of what one thinks and it matters not if it is in a formal competition, merely a pleasure hunt or running what one thinks about it and what others in the same party think may and do often not match up. I've given my opinion, read others and I take them for what they are, opinion so I'm done with posting to this thread.

[fulcount]

Thank goodness Warddog you are done with your OPINIONS on the subject
you sure do like to Philophisize on most any subject on the board most examples you bring up
that have nothing to do with the subject at hand are long winded and maybe are good reading to some
But sure do go around John henerys barn in most cases

John O

[S.R.Patch]

I only ever been in a few trials, seen lots of good and some incomplete hounds make the ribbon finals. Mostly what I as a rabbit hunter likes and breeds is defined as the "tweener" hounds. To rough for the conservative crowd and not wild or rough enough for the fly-bye crowd. Imho, the trials are a fun game but, the total hound is never tested for or allowed time for evaluation, the time constraints and rules are not set for what a rabbit hunter requires.
I got to go by the ARHA world hunt Saturday and see some old friends and a walkabout round the park and all I can say is boy has the color of the kennel roof changed. Bluticks abound and black/tans were the back drop for only a few splashes of white and reds,... a couple yrs absence sure makes a big difference. The report was lots of rabbits to be found with some baby rabbits giving some cast the fits..lol ... the weather was good, 30's at night warming 20 deg in the day, heard no one complaining about the ticks tho turkey are out in full strut everywhere around here now.
Well, Im done with my heresy and jaunt around the barn. Remember, hunt your hounds into the wind, it was sure windy at the world hunt, as always...lol
Best wishes and congrats to the winners and the beagle fraternity as a whole.

[sparky]

the trials are a fun game but, the total hound is never tested for or allowed time for evaluation, the time constraints and rules are not set for what a rabbit hunter requires.

You obviously haven't ever been to an AKC trial,because there are no time constraints,the judges can run them as long as they want to,some have ran over to the next day to finish up,most winner packs in the Midwest run 3-4 hours,all the dogs are shot over if anything is gun shy they're picked up,the rules state that the dogs must account for their game just like gun hunting,maybe that's why they call it the Midwest Gundog Federation.

There was this ole fella that use to come to all our local club hunts,he owned beagles but he never brought a dog to the trial,he just came over to the clubhouse an talked about how bad everybody else's dogs were lol ,most folks didn't take him serious an just blew him off.

It's easy to set back an talk about something when you don't have a dog in the fight. Like the old saying goes - "put up or shut up", that's my OPINION.

[S.R.Patch]

Sparky, you are well entitled to your opinion.
I could tell you of as many people who were fooled into thinking breeding to field trial hounds would better their rabbit hounds.
I would never judge a man or his hounds by what I saw only at a field trial.
I know trials do the best they can but if 3-4 hrs is all you hunt in a day then go for it. I'll not tell others to "blow you off". Just like I heard the complaints of driving so far to a trail for a 30 minute look, trials do the best they can with whatever shows up that day. I never heard of a trial where no places were given and all told to bring better hounds next time...lol

[sparky]

I didn't say the trial only runs for 3-4 hours a day,I said the Winners Pack runs for 3-4 hours. An AKC trial usually starts at 8am an normally isn't over til close to dark,they run a first series,then a second series,sometimes even a third series,then they run the Winners Pack,but you wouldn't know these things.

I never said it's better to breed to field trial hounds,it makes no difference to me what folks choose to breed to,it's haters like yourself that talk negatively about people breeding to FC's.

You keep repeating what you have heard or read,that's called "hear say" or "second hand information" Kinda like spreading rumors,that usually don't mean much to most people, but since you like to repeat an point out the few negative things that you've heard or read on here,why don't you repeat or point out any of the many positive things that have been said on here about field trials? You pick out a few bad things an run with it,why is that?