Opening Before the Rabbit is Up

[rabbitatfarm]

This morning my male opened on a track and worked it about 3/8 of a mile and jumped the rabbit. I got comments like, "He opened and went that far before the rabbit was up?" Obviously, there was a track for him to follow so the rabbit must have been "up" at some point. In a trial, he probably would have received a strike if the other dogs would have harked in. I was working him solo so that's an "if" question. If opening before the "rabbit is up" is a fault, why do they award strikes in LP? Seems you would go right to a jump or a minus if it isn't jumped. Had I been hunting, he would have given me a shot and I thought that was the goal. So to be PC, how close does a dog have to be to jumping a rabbit before he opens? For all I know this rabbit could have just kept moving slowly in front of him until he caught up and jumped it. It's not like he was just "popping off." He was running/following a track.

Larry

[billpapas]

I have a bitch that does the same thing but it don't bother me one bit, I'm only a hunter but you can bet we are going to be running a rabbit in just a few minutes 90% of the time!!

[Alabama John]

Larry,
I don't have a problem with that while hunting your dog alone.
The first question that comes up is if he was in the thick stuff looking all around for a rabbit, would he of jumped a rabbit quicker than he did trailing that distance?
The second problem as many see with that cold trailing is until any other dogs hunting with your dog get used to him doing that and learn to not pay him any attention until he jumps (and that can tell that be his mouth changing) they will stop hunting themselves and all fall in behind him following all in a line which keep any of them hunting to jump a rabbit themselves.
You've cut the hunting for a rabbit down to one dog when it could of been several which ups your chances of success.

[rabbitatfarm]

The track he took was like that of a rabbit traveling--may have been a buck; he ran pretty good once he was jumped. Max basically followed the track up a moderately brushy fence line--mostly pole-size trees--until he jumped the rabbit. He usually doesn't open unless he smells a fresh track. I'm pretty sure at a LP trial the other dogs would have harked in. That might be the down side in that one of those dogs might get the jump points. Some imply a dog should be completely silent until the rabbit is jumped. I've been to several trials where a strike wins the cast, especially on deep snow and cold. If all you got was a strike, that implies the rabbit was never jumped. If I run multiple dogs and one opens and the others get on the track but don't hark in, I'll be correcting the dog that opened.

Larry

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Larry
You stated that he was not just popping off,that he was running/following a track and that the rabbit must have been "up" at some point.
Not having been there and knowing what the conditions were it's hard for me to say what your hound might have been doing.
Maybe the scenting conditions were real good this morning and your hound found a feed track where the rabbit had been meandering around his territory or maybe a breeding buck out searching for does and the rabbit is now quite a ways off from where your hound has encountered his scent.That rabbit might have been there 1/2 an hour or an hour before hand and conditions were right and/or your hound has enough nose to follow that track and make enough progress to close the gap.That rabbit as they often do could have been sitting up listening to your hound coming and then lit out creating a "jump"if you will.But in reality that rabbit was moving most of the time.
Another scenario might be that the scenting conditions were terrible this morning.That rabbit hearing you and your friends/dog moving through the cover decides to not sit still but slides out of there before you get any closer.Five minutes go by before your hound gets in to that thicket/piece of ground and finds some rabbit scent.You hound has enough nose to follow this line making forward progress all the time but he certainly can't drive it due to the conditions. As mentioned above,that rabbit not being pushed hard is often just hopping along through the cover and not fleeing for his life.The rabbit may sit up and listen to the hound come and let him get quite close before vacating that spot.A jump? He was moving most all the time while he covered that 3/8 of a mile I would guess.
As far as Little Pack goes ............. Many times when I was judging I'd end up awarding Strike/Jump simultaneously as they often occur together.Hound opens and there goes the rabbit.
Other times the pack is working thick cover I would see a rabbit get up and take off.None of the hounds see it and they continue to search until one or more of those hounds encounter that line [often a good ways from where the rabbit was sitting and "jumped"] open and line it out.Strike points only get awarded as none of those hounds "jumped" that rabbit.
Bilpapas.What you said ,for me is the gold standard " we are going to be running a rabbit in just a few minutes 90% of the time".
I definitely don't mind a dog opening some before the rabbit has jumped up and they are firing out of there with it.I also don't mind when a hound has to gear down to keep the track going.Now for me,a beagle that routinely trailed up rabbits that were 3/8 of a mile off before he got them up and running good wouldn't be my cup of tea.JMHO as always.

[rabbitatfarm]

That was the first time I have him seen him do that. Usually, he is pretty tight-mouthed until he gets really close or jumps it. Your scenario of the buck makes the most sense. I do believe that rabbit was moving ahead most of the time. There were times Max would line it out and then gear down again. I appreciate all the input. It was a frosty morning, just starting to melt some. Scent is such a fascinating subject. Last night my female spooked a rabbit and couldn't smell it at all after the jump.

Larry

[rabbitearl]

What more can you ask. He show you a rabbit. I seen some FC that you have to show them a rabbit then they run it. I like a dog to show me a rabbit not the other way around. I don t care how good they run it.

[bluemouse]

Hey rabbit earl I seen one of those tally-ho sticks one time. Here is my though on this subject most dogs are wired different, how does the hound know if the rabbit is 20 ft, 50 yards and so on. Different days have better scent days that others which could effect what a hounds does. Then like I said hounds are different also. I have a female I can drop on a rabbit I seen on the side of the road and she will he-he until she sticks her nose in his butt. And my males will hit the ground running. I found out the more you run your hound the better you will understand how they are wired.

[Casey Harner]

There is two types of dogs that ppl prefer, honest mouth and tight mouth. I prefer honest mouth ten out of ten times, even if it costs me a win. I want a jump first bark second type of rabbit dog. In your case, I believe this rabbit was hot enough that your dog could run the trail straight to him. If he was hammering that rabbit I say most judges would score him.

I have seen my favorite dog open on a track, no other dogs opened up until they got ready to cross the road. The other four opened up and drove the track across the road. Once across the judge (Ukc performance pack) said to handle your dogs. I picked up a minus. There was this other time where my dog opened up and for two minutes tried to find the lone. Once found, she drove the track 100 yards and it came to a small bottom where some water was at. They broke down and the judge said handle your dogs. There was my dog and another that burned that track 100 yards. After we unleashed them the third dog walked through the water and jumped a rabbit, which was probably the same mine jumped.

I know my dog well, on frosty mornings she's at her best. She won't open up unless she knows it's a rabbit. I've seen her jump many of rabbits in a thickets and honey suckles. She's one of those jump first bark second types of dogs. If she opens up she has a rabbit. Lot of people might think she has no nose, but I've seen this dog drive tracks in snow or in 100 degree heat. On gravel coal mine roads... She has a great nose, but she's also honest mouth!

[rabbitatfarm]

It would have been interesting if it was a regular trial to see what the other dogs and a judge would have done. I agree, I think most judges would give him a strike. This wasn't pottering around in one place for three minutes. He was moving the track forward, sometimes hammering and sometimes gearing down in the heavier cover. It may have been a "perfect-storm" morning as far as scenting. He is not one to open on old scent.

I agree, too, that a dog has no clue whether the rabbit is 20 feet or 100 yards. All it knows is a rabbit passed through not long ago. It may be a disadvantage to have a dog that opens before the jump because the other dogs may take the jump away from him. But strike points add up too, so it could be a wash. Checks are the real point getters. This dog can be tough on checks; he picked up two or three after the jump.

Either way, running dogs is always an experience ad we're both learning something new every day. I've been soloing this dog for a few days and it is amazing the things I hadn't noticed before. He uses the wind currents like a pointing dog, especially around brush piles or other heavy cover. We'll find out in a few days what the judges at The World think.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

Larry