Formats, Foot,and Style

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BB Beagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by BB Beagles »

The reason I asked about the terrain is because I've seen lot of hounds that were notorious for being footy and when ran in sericea they went from say a 7+ to a 5 or playing catch up because their trying to leap over grass constantly. I've said it before that sericea grass is a equalizer.
Just wondered if some of the hounds that were mentioned were seen by different judges in different terrains?
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rridzon
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by rridzon »

I agree with Hard on a check I believe in his theory .Mr. Woods seems you have a lot to offer in the judging aspect ,do you judge any more? Was Prime time a front end type hound ?

randy hicks
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by randy hicks »

so at the end of the day- foot, style, and formats. comes down to judges and what they like or want that day-

Hare Chaser
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Hare Chaser »

The human element will always be a factor. Some folks will even go so far as to let who is judging determine what dogs they enter that day or just stay home when certain judges are on. I have a ton of respect for the folks who put their dogs down no matter who the judge is, no matter what the conditions are and especially those who when they head off to the woods to hunt have the same dog they trial on the end of the leash going to the woods.

If that was the way across the spectrum of sporting dogs in general it might be much easier to find good gun dogs.

hard on a check
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by hard on a check »

hard on a check wrote:if the judges are only judging a certain style an speed then their not doing their job.
hard on a check wrote:what's most important is the dogs that have the most positive marks on the score card at the end of the day. As long as the best five dogs of that day are on the table that's all that matters regardless of their speed an style.
At the end of the day it should always come down to the overall PERFORMANCE of the dogs, it's not about what style a judge likes or wants, it's about the dogs that performed the best on that day.

If the judges can keep up decent,and see as much of the race as possible the dogs will sort themselves out,all we gotta do is watch an write it down,they'll show us who is doing the work. Every day an every trial is different,if it wasn't then we would already know who the top five was gonna be. It's not about us,it's about the performance of the dogs on that particular day,were just there to watch an write it down,and do our best to get it right.

The Midwest is a great federation,it promotes a dog you can gun hunt or field trial with.

NeilKimbrel7
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by NeilKimbrel7 »

Hahaha...bullseye and switch are similar in style? Lmao, hell no. Switch was a win or get picked up kinda hound, bullseye was super consistent dog that could usually place top 5 but I thought he'd have a hard time to get his wins. I remember josh running two males and getting upset because his pup was outplacing his better dog. IMO his better dog probably was out scoring bullseye at home, but trialing is half being good and half being able to handle pressure. Bullseye was a good dog, but great at handling pressure. I like and appreciate both styles, but I know they're not for everybody and the same goes for my dog or anybody else. Veet did kick ass in Arkansas and was a great dog but sometimes lacked a little umph in high scenting. I took him to Iowa and they said he was what everybody was looking for....10 years ago..,.and that he could've ifc easy. Funny, cuz Jason got a steal on him under the pretense that he lacked foot for Midwest. Also, I would advise, if you're going to listen to somebody, trust someone who has been relevant in the past 5 years.
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warddog
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by warddog »

been reading this with much interest and it is now 5 pages into the conversation and it appears that many agree with EXACTLY what I have said many, many times. That is the end result boils down at the end of the day to OPINION. The judge(s) have the FINAL opinions and about all rules I have read state such. There may be a set of rules, but they are all subject to personal interpretation as well as what was seen by each individual. Bottom line is when one puts their dog into a competition they are agreeing to the fact that they will be judged by someone and a judgement is a personal opinion. YEP, I've heard it before one is NOT an experienced beagle or houndsman because they do not participate in an exact trail format but everyone of us who follow hounds KNOW exactly what we like and if we are judging that is what we will navigate towards in the end. It is human nature and that has also been stated in these 5 pages. It matters not what kind of trail one is participating in and the same thing is true when up stack them up on the bench! It's a personal opinion and that is why people elect to throw down or not to throw down dependent on the judges. Doesn't mean some are not honest as I believe most try to do the best they can BUT human nature is human nature and they like what they like.

mybeagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by mybeagles »

so at the end of the day- foot, style, and formats. comes down to judges and what they like or want that day-
Randy and wardog,

It's not so much about opinion as much as it is dogs that perform well in the conditions of that day. If scenting is great the fast front end dogs dominate. If scenting is poor and many times it is....the hardest hitting dogs will often be very faulty and need to be picked up. If judges place fast dogs that fail to keep steady smooth pressure on the rabbit they have not done their job correctly. If scenting is good and judges place slower hounds simply because they prefer a slower dog they have not done their job.

It appears to me that your suggesting "opinion" involves a measure if personal bias or dishonesty. When I judge I like to think of it as a judgement call as to what hounds are making the best progress in accordance with the rules. I have placed and given the win to dogs I didn't care for and wouldn't own but on that given day in "my judgement" we're bringing the heat without being too faulty.

Anyone who thinks the Midwest style hound is cookie cutter style is missing something. There are regulars that compete in the Midwest that own and compete with different style hounds in the same trial. If dogs ranging from 6-10 speed can and do win then you have different styles. If I had a concern about Midwest trials it would be the fact that too many front end dogs feed heavily off the 2-5 hounds. Many times a really smooth 6-7 speed hound will place 3-5 but in reality they are holding the entire race together. Just an observation....

I fully understand many love a front end dog that can fly but nothing is more impressive to me than a dog like Duke or Kane that could dissect a pack of dogs from the 3 slot and just make them look ridiculous and over competitive.
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randy hicks
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by randy hicks »

Mybeagles- whoever you are? good for you that you judge and you think you doing what you can to promote the beagle world. but your out of your freaking mind if you think for a second that i havent ran dogs long enuff that i have watched lines get walked out by my dogs. just seen it this morning by a pretty footy hound, this post comes down to judges.

mybeagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by mybeagles »

Yes Randy those fast hounds are famous for walking out the lines with 5-6 hounds pushing from behind. Definitely the norm....lol

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sparky
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by sparky »

mybeagles wrote:It's not so much about opinion as much as it is dogs that perform well in the conditions of that day.
:thumbsup:
Like I've stated many times before - If judging was based on opinion, then instead of running along with the dogs writing down what you see an keeping score,the judges could just stand back with the gallery an give their opinion on what dogs they think did the best job an go home.

If the judges are judging based off their opinion an what style dog they like,then that's not right, They should be judging by the rules,writing down what they see,awarding merits for positive score an demerits for negative/faults. The dogs with the most merits an the least amount of demerits on the score card should win an place,Simple.
Last edited by sparky on Sun May 15, 2016 1:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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hard on a check
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by hard on a check »

mybeagles wrote:It's not so much about opinion as much as it is dogs that perform well in the conditions of that day. If scenting is great the fast front end dogs dominate. If scenting is poor and many times it is....the hardest hitting dogs will often be very faulty and need to be picked up. If judges place fast dogs that fail to keep steady smooth pressure on the rabbit they have not done their job correctly. If scenting is good and judges place slower hounds simply because they prefer a slower dog they have not done their job.

It appears to me that your suggesting "opinion" involves a measure if personal bias or dishonesty. When I judge I like to think of it as a judgement call as to what hounds are making the best progress in accordance with the rules. I have placed and given the win to dogs I didn't care for and wouldn't own but on that given day in "my judgement" we're bringing the heat without being too faulty.

Anyone who thinks the Midwest style hound is cookie cutter style is missing something. There are regulars that compete in the Midwest that own and compete with different style hounds in the same trial. If dogs ranging from 6-10 speed can and do win then you have different styles. If I had a concern about Midwest trials it would be the fact that too many front end dogs feed heavily off the 2-5 hounds. Many times a really smooth 6-7 speed hound will place 3-5 but in reality they are holding the entire race together. Just an observation....
Well Said....

randy hicks
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by randy hicks »

still just opinions- i have seen dogs walk lines while being ran over, oh wait that would just be my opinion on what i seen. see how this works. it takes two judges to agree or one to force his will upon the other till he\her says screw it,"it" being his or hers own opinion on what they want. judging is a thankless job so i am saying thanks to all that do this..

hard on a check
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by hard on a check »

I think some people have a hard time accepting their dogs got beat,so they blame the judges to make themselves feel better by saying "that's just their opinion". Judges aren't there to give their opinion or judge by their personal preference, they are there to place the five best dogs of that day.

Now if a judge or judges aren't being honest,and their pulling for a certain dog,then that's a whole different story,that would be cheating,but if their out there doing their best,and writing down what they see,and putting the five best dogs of that day on the table based off their score cards,then that's all anyone can ask for.

I've judged somewhere between 25-30 licensed trials,so I'm no expert,but I promise you I didn't put wins on dogs based on my opinion or what I personally like, actually I've put wins on dogs that weren't necessarily my style at all,but they deserved the win on that day,they got the most work done with minimal mistakes,and they were awarded the win. Had nothing to do with my opinion,it had everything to do with what was on my card.

I've judged with a number of different judges,and 98% of the time we were on the same page,we might compare our cards an have a couple dogs in different order here an there,(give an take) but no major differences. Now if were talking politics that's a whole new can of worms,but the majority of the guys I've judged with were honest guys that were doing their best to put the five best dogs of that day on the table based off their score cards not their opinions or personal preference.

The part of field trialing that's definitely not perfect is the fact that the judges aren't gonna see everything,they can only score what they see,but even though they don't see everything,I still feel pretty confident after running along an watching the dogs run all day the judges can get enough score to get it right.
Judges are human,and are subject to make mistakes,as long as the mistake is an honest mistake then "hey" sh!t happens.
I say to anyone interested - Get your license,hit the treadmill,lace em up,and give it a shot.
Judging is a lot of fun,and very self rewarding at the end of the day.
If trials aren't for you,then guess what,you don't have to go.

mybeagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by mybeagles »

:check:
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