Formats, Foot,and Style

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BB Beagles
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Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by BB Beagles »

Just got to thinking other day after I had asked Mr Wells about how FC's that Maravics Blue Ninja had produced in another post. When he said while ninja lacked lil foot for mid-west formats he had one off spring to make FCGD and some grandsons to perform well in mid-west.
I have quite a bit of ninja blood running through my kennel. I'm sure that they are'nt the fastest, but I think they have plenty of foot. (Upper-Med). Me personally I want them to have that run to catch style, along with adequate line control. If line is over run, a quick snap back to point of loss. Proper mouth, meaning not to tight nor not to loose. Opening only when positive and making forward progress Pusueing it quarry.
With that being said, I run in ARHA Lil Pack formats. Mostly because they are more abundant in my area. So to all that thought lil pack was just rough, swinging, skirting, dogs, it is not true. Now, by me running that style of dog, and by the rules set for that format, I have been beaten by those other styles of hounds, but you run what you like.

Can someone please explain the difference in formats, foot, and running style to all formats if possible. Especially the AKC formats cause I'm interested in participating in some.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by BB Beagles on Tue May 03, 2016 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hard on a check
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by hard on a check »

BB Beagles wrote:Can someone please explain the difference in formats, foot, and running style to all formats if possible. Especially the AKC formats cause I'm interested in participating in some.
Thanks in advance.
Based on my experience with the Midwest it would be hard for me to give you an exact answer to foot speed an running style. I've put wins on dogs that were medium to upper medium speed,and I've put wins on dogs that were fast. I've put wins on dogs that were aggressive an on the edge in style,and I've put wins on dogs that were conservative in style. The best dog of that day should always win regardless of speed an style, I've judged spring trials when the running was heads up an rolling,on those days the dogs that were driving the track were doing most of the positive work an getting most of the score,I've judged fall/winter trials when the running was hit an miss,very spotty an tough,on those days the dogs that kept putting the pack back on the rabbit an keeping the race alive were doing most of the positive work an getting most of the score. The same speed an style doesn't always win,it has a lot to do with the scenting conditions an time of year. Judges write down what they see,and should put the five best dogs on the table at the end of the day, dogs that are causing breakdowns and continue disrupting the smoothness of the pack should be picked up, dogs that aren't contributing to the race should be picked up, if the judges are only judging a certain style an speed then their not doing their job.

So from my experience in the Midwest you could have success with anywhere from a 6-10 on foot speed.
You could have success with a conservative line control check dog,that makes the turns, or you could have success with a hard hittin flashy front end type dog,(depends on the day). As long as the best five dogs that were doing the majority of the positive work are on the table at the end of the day that's all that matters.

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Just to clarify what I said about Ninja, I never said Ninja, himself lacked foot. I never saw him run, but I heard that he was very fast. I said the offspring that we saw try to run in the Mid-West lacked enough foot to win. We may not have got to see the best Ninja dogs run. Most of his FC's were in the Northeast. I saw some littermates to Blue Barry( Blue Ninja x Silvertone Belle) & they were nice dogs, but lacked foot also.
Ninja blood seemed to add plenty of hunt & good checkwork & when crossed with hounds with Mid-West foot, it produced great results. Blue Barry crossed with Branko's Tango which was a nice hound herself that had several places & one win in the Mid-West produced FC Pinnacle Hill Sport, who was a front running dog that also had good line control. Most of us try to breed for a hound that can adjust to conditions & win on high flying days or tough days when they have to slow down to control the line.
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Mark T
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Mark T »

I had the pleasure of hunting with and/or running with several offspring of Ninja. Including Blue Barry, Blue Moon, Blue Jean, Simba, Lonesome Creek Tricki Nicki, LC Hare Razor, Squirrel Creek Angie, SC Cinder, Kemlers Lucky Penny, Little Bit of Pepper, Dixie Hill Belle just to name a few. Several others that didn't have a title or not as "famous". Almost to a dog they did not lack foot...some, Blue Moon, Penny, Belle were what I would call extremely fast for LPH standards. The trait they ALL possessed was extreme hunt and toughness. There are more stories out there about a friend saw a grandpup of so and so and he didn't do this, or he/she lacked this. Ninja died 20yrs ago...all his pups died 10yrs ago, or at least quit running/producing 10yrs ago. There is a lot of other dogs in a 3-4-5 generation pedigree along with Ninja in a hounds pedigree living and competing today. Hard to say what Ninja contributed to that pup when he is listed once in a 5gen pedigree

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Mark T is much more qualified to answer questions about Blue Ninja than me or anyone. I was around when Ninja was alive & saw a few of his pups run, but not any of his FC's. Like I said all but one of his FC's were in the Northeast. Blue Ninja never stood at stud in the Mid-West. Mark has kept the Blue Ninja blood alive in my opinion & bred it the right way. Top Dam, FC Green Bay Blue Bay & most of the successful Blue Ninja stuff today came from his breedings.
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BB Beagles
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by BB Beagles »

Mr Trudel, thank you for the info. Would love to hear more about some of the hounds you mentioned in your post. I have spoken to Dana Robinson in the past about Ninja, and he has always spoken highly of you.

Mr Wells I apologize for the mix up on my post earlier, I meant to say what you did about the off spring lacking foot for mid west. What are some of the mid west bloodlines that do well?

Thanks again for the info.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by sparky »

BB Beagles wrote:What are some of the mid west bloodlines that do well?
Branko,GreenBay,Awful Bawlin.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by sbeagler »

The hounds Mark MENTIONED on large pack on hare including Missy Mimi Alladin Simba Barry and his off spring ,and Stub Barkers extension of the line could be dominating and over powering at times. The line is respected from its accomplishments numerous NLPC wins futurity wins , Trial of Champions wins or placed high. These dogs were the real deal only being present when they kicked Azz might be the only way some would believe. A dog can only run as fast the nose ,scent or game allows The line blends well with many others or when line bred. I have not seen any slow dogs most are speed 7 or more on cottontail. Reggie was line bred Blue Ninja. Reggie won midwest ARHA World Hunt 400 plus entries LPH AKC /CKC and was viewed by must a banger that could hook it up on a cottontail or hare. No offense this is one of the highly respected proven bloodlines in history. What a resume none come close in the National level of recognition at the big events. Read the top dams list you see line bred Blue Ninja blood alot years. I have watched beagle blood lines for almost 4 decades you be hard to top this one for consistent winning and production consistency.

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

Hello Greg
Saw this post and having line bred on I.F.C.Maravic's Blue Ninja's blood for the past 20 years couldn't help but want to jump in.
I remember standing around at a Mid-West trial in Berea,Ky. in 2009 with you,Mike Hatfield,Jamie Rice,Brian Bush and Jimmy Abshire and the same statement about Ninja and /or his sons and daughters not having enough foot to compete in the Mid-West Association was made.I don't remember if that sentiment was expressed by you or shared by the others also.
That was my first time at a Mid-West trial and I wasn't real familiar with the format,history of the association or the hounds that had success running in it and I'd never heard folks in the northeast ever question Ninja's foot.But,I'm thinking to myself "what the heck?"
So I've got to ask you and other Mid-West followers. Which hounds do you think are generally footier,Mid-West S.P.O. or the Large Pack hounds?
I have very limited experience with the Mid-West trials having only been to several of them but have participated and marshaled at numerous LPH. trials in New England.
From my perspective and experience I'd have to say that I think that the Large Pack hounds up north on hare or swampers at Mel Faust's in Louisiana tend to push/drive their game harder and faster than what I've seen at the Mid-West trials. Alot of that has to do with the game [hare and swampers as opposed to cottontails ].
Also keep in mind that MANY,MANY of the Mid-West Association trial winners are bred very similar to the hounds winning in Large Pack.
So,getting back to Ninja.I had the opportunity to watch him run at trials on a couple of occasions.In 1993 I watched him win at North Hampton-Russell in Massachusetts in a class of 59 big males and he didn't do it from the rear or the middle of the pack.He was dominant that day.I watched Ninja and his litter mate sister Mimi in 1994 at Hardwick,Vermont at the A.K.C. Large Pack Trial of Champions.Ninja took 3'rd.Paul Komorney of Northway fame was running I.F.C. Northway Driver,F.C.Northway Ninja and F.C. Northway Jump Master and no knock on Northway but Ninja didn't run behind any of them that day.
Ninja had 1'st places in Massachusetts,Michigan,Wisconsin,Louisiana and four wins in Canada to make him an International Field Champion so he obviously had enough foot to be competitive in numerous associations,locations and types of game.
Ninja's litter mate sister F.C. Mimi won the 10'th L.P.H. Trial of Champions,won the 1'st A.K.C. Nationals L.P.H.,took 3'rd at the Can-Am Challenge on snow and then came back and won the Nationals a second time.Another litter mate named F.C. Missy also won the Nationals.I saw both Mimi and Missy at trials and like Ninja they had plenty of foot!
According to Vic Costanza Ninja's owner,Ninja was bred 40 times and produced over 40 F.C.'s,FTCH's and I.F.C.'s as well as many A.R.H.A. and U.K.C. titled hounds.
Ninja produced Blue Barry who had enough foot to win the A.K.C. Large Pack Nationals twice in back to back years.Ninja also sired F.C. Little Bit of Pepper who won the A.K.C. Nationals.Sired F.C. Lonesome Creek Nikki who was Better Beagling 15" High Hound in 1998.Sired F.C. Dixie Hill Belle who won the A.K.C. Large Pack Nationals.Sired I.F.C. Squirrel Creek Angie and F.C.'s Maravic's Blue Moon,Blue Jean and Simba all finished by Vic plus many others.
Ninja's son Blue Barry has gone on to sire International Field Champion litter mates Beavercreek's Blue Max [ who has won and placed in 37 trials ] and Manifest Destiny.Maravic's Blue Barbie that won the International Hare Futurity in a class of 46.And most recently F.C. Side Hill Keuka Blue that satisfied his field trial requirements three times over with nine wins and one of them was winning the Futurity Trial of Champions.
I don't know Greg if you would consider that any of these hounds have what you refer to as Mid-West foot??
I sure wouldn't claim that any of my line bred Ninja hounds are wind splitters but I've yet to go run or hunt with anyone's hounds that they couldn't stay up and run with and get their share of the work.Mark Trudell mentioned Blue Moon as being extremely fast.I owned a litter mate to her I called Nola Drive and likewise she could get up on her game and push it hard and fast!
Foot is such a subjective thing,but I wouldn't want anybody to ever think that the Ninja dogs didn't come with enough of it.
Heck,lots of folks will tell you that Ranger Dan didn't have enough foot and compared to a lot of Mid-West,Little Pack and Large Pack hounds he didn't! But look how popular and sought after his blood is by some today.
Good post by Hard on a check!
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Like I said, the ones that I saw personally run in the Mid-West weren't fast enough. I did not see any of his FC's run, so I can't comment on their speed. I don't think we saw enough of his offspring down here run to make a true evaluation. I saw three littermates to Blue Barry run & they were extremely conservative & did not want the front. I think it was that cross that we saw out of FC Branko's Silvertone Belle that created the buzz that Ninja dogs lacked foot because she was so fast, we expected those pups to be fast also. Speed isn't everything to me & is easy to breed into them so I knew by their hunt, pedigree & checkwork ability , that the Ninja blood would be an asset to the breed even if it took a second generation or so to breed more foot into them. I have Ninja blood in my kennel & will always view this bloodline as a plus to have,
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by KanesIrish »

Mid West isn't a format, it's an association of beagle clubs that run the Small Pack Option format, sponsored by the AKC.

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by WELLS WOODS »

I think the AKC SPO in the Mid-West style of running cottontail & AKC large pack on hare are two different worlds as far how dogs are trained to perform. Mid-West dogs, once they learn that they are only going to run in short 2 hour runs each time they are trialed, come out on fire & aggressive & give everything they have from start to finish. Large Pack dogs learn that they are going to be out there a while & learn not to burn themselves out early & pace themselves for the marathon so they will have plenty left in the tank at the end. If you'll notice, there are a lot of large pack dogs with similar bloodlines that run in Mid-West, so these hounds can adjust to the different style & game if given time. The Mid-West runs some really fast dogs & it's easy to get in trouble with the way some of these tricky cottontail run with less scent than hare. It takes a special hound to excel in either trial format. The guys that have been in this for years can tell you the ones good enough to win are exceptional and a very small percentage of hounds produced end up being that good. I'm a big fan of IFC Branko's Heli-Prop blood. You will see his name in countless pedigrees of some of the best in both the Mid-West & large pack. You will also see his half brother IFC Maravic's Blue Ninja. FTC Branko's Jack of all Trades son's like Ninja & Prop are some of the most common names in a lot of these FC's pedigrees; also IFC Branko's Lumberjack, another Jack son has made a big impact. There are also different bloodlines that have been important for the breed; too many to mention, but Jack & his sons will forever be legendary producers of the fast, line control hounds that trIalers & gun hunters love.
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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by KanesIrish »

Interesting theory Greg.

What about when the dogs that run Mid West go hunting? Do they know to pace themselves then?

Yes, the Mid West and Large Pack lines are very similar but it seems that here in the Northeast and down there in the Mid West we breed for different attributes.

I've never seen a dogs hunt as hard as I have when I judged a Mid West Association trial, no dogs were standing around and dogs were even slightly lazy. Here in the Northeast some hounds hunt that hard, but not nearly as hard as the Mid West, but we look for dogs that stay, stay close, get it back, and keep a race going on the same rabbit/hare for hours upon hours. We don't have an over abundance of rabbits like I've seen in Kentucky, you jump a hare, or even a cottontail that could be the one rabbit you get on all day.

I'm not being derogatory, but we look for different attributes, nothing outside of the rule book. You and I could look at a whole litter and pick totally two different dogs out of that litter because it fits our needs...I think that's what's happening between the hare world and the Mid West.

Thoughts?

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by S.R.Patch »

Are you guys running in pens or in the wild, "one rabbit/hare all day"?
I sold a boy a young bitch he took to a midwest derby trial in Oklahoma and win with her, she was just a good rabbit dog tho, no special breeding for style. Hunt hard, get a rabbit up and run it to the gun.
Most rabbit hunters don't have enough hounds they can select by the weather or the scenting, the hounds they keep have to be able to adapt and adjust.
This argument sounds like ya'll need to head and tail your packs if they can't be ran together. Think like a rabbit hunters, those lazy ones are taking up kennel space... :lol:

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Re: Formats, Foot,and Style

Post by Swampman »

WELLS WOODS wrote:I think the AKC SPO in the Mid-West style of running cottontail & AKC large pack on hare are two different worlds as far how dogs are trained to perform. Mid-West dogs, once they learn that they are only going to run in short 2 hour runs each time they are trialed, come out on fire & aggressive & give everything they have from start to finish. Large Pack dogs learn that they are going to be out there a while & learn not to burn themselves out early & pace themselves for the marathon so they will have plenty left in the tank at the end.
How they are trained, yes, but are you serious about the rest?
Have you ever attended a LPH trial?
I feel I have fairly intelligent hounds, but by no means are they smart enough to say to themselves, this is a LPH trial, I need to pace myself.

I can guarantee you there is absolutely no pacing going on what so ever.
It's balls to the walls right from the get go, hounds with speed that don't get rattled from extreme pressure and the stamina to run hard for 5 hours straight is what typically wins in LPH.

You really need to experience a LPH trial to fully understand the rigors these hounds have to endure.

Now, I need to head north to the cabin to run hare all day tomorrow in an attempt to prepare the hounds for the Borderline trial next weekend.

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