Formats, Foot,and Style

[sparky]

Good post,I agree with most of what you said. Do you think that all the dogs that are winning in the Midwest are the same speed & style? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you,but it seems like your describing winning dogs as front runners,which would mean their 9-10 on speed. I've seen plenty of trials where a medium - upper medium speed dog won,don't get me wrong I've also seen the Driver's win from the front as well,but a dominant Check dog that doesn't mind slotting up,and not on the front much wins alot too. The same speed & style winning every trial doesn't exist,there's a variety of speed & styles that have success,not every winning dog is the same,what fun would that be? Of course they need enough foot to compete,there's no doubt about that,but like I said before a dog that's a 7 on speed can fill the score card up with Checks an Turns,and still win a trial without having many Drives.

Just an example: Switch a Gear and Patterson's Bullseye, both these dogs had success an finished,both nice dogs, but they were different in speed & style.

Some dogs need ran 30 hours a week to be ready for a trial (high maintenance),other dogs can be ran once or twice a week an be ready for a trial (low maintenance).

[WELLS WOODS]

I think all Mid-West FC's are very similar in running style. They may vary a degree or two in certain areas, but they all should push the rabbit as hard & fast as possible on that day. I didn't say race with their packmates as hard as possible or out run their nose as much as possible. This is not speed in my opinion; it's faulty actions that will only hinder the dogs that can get it done right. True FC's should be able to run the front if need be or slow down & walk at times to find tough losses. They don't have to have blazing speed, but enough to stay close to where the action is until they get a chance to move up & they should be able to handle the front when the opportunity arises. Mid-West FC's should all be good check dogs also that work a check inside out. They shouldn't be very faulty with their mouth; babbling, backtracking, ghost trailing, etc. If the judging is done right at a field trial & the best are brought back to the winners pack, their shouldn't be much cleaning up to do. I was always able to find at least 5 or 6 hounds at a trial that could run the rabbit the right way; fast & accurately enough that they didn't need their old mother trotting behind to keep them straight. I saw Bullseye run twice & thought he fit the mold of about every other FC I've seen. He was fast & smooth & could find tough checks. He was clean with his mouth, close in the check, ran a lot of front, but could slot up also; he looked great I thought. I never saw Switch run? Where did he differ so much from that style?

[sparky]

From what I saw, I would say Switch was a 9-10 on speed, a hard hittin front end type dog,he was flashy.
I would say Bullseye was a 7 on speed, more conservative style,line running,checkin an turnin,very consistent,he won hound of the year.
Both dogs were nice,and deserving of their FC title. Some days the high flyers win,some days the more conservative dogs win.
Some dogs can do both,but some cant. We all want to own a dog that can win a spring trial on a high flying day,and also win a winter snow trial on a tough day,but it doesn't always work that way.

You really think all the Midwest FC's are the same in speed an style, C'mon man.
I can agree with similar in style, but their definitely not all equal in speed,style,or talent, if that really was the case we would all be breeding to the same stud.

[WELLS WOODS]

Bullseye ran the front a lot when I saw him. It was the winners pack both times I saw him & the running was great; maybe they had weeded the racers out by then. Nothing wrong will foot & flash as long as Switch had good line control & could get the job done the right way . I said Mid-West FC's running styles were similar, not exactly the same. The great ones can run well no matter what type of day it is & they will finish a lot easier than the dogs that can't adjust to conditions & have to have "their type of day" to look good; whether good or bad scenting. If we are doing our job right as judges, people should be able to get a pretty good idea of the style of hound a Mid-West FC is. The rulebook doesn't change. Whether people are smart enough to interpret it right & will enforce it correctly in the field is the question.

[mybeagles]

There are distinctly different styles that win, place, and finish in the Midwest. Not all are front runners that explode out of a check. Some are smooth and steady and capitalize on the mistakes of others.

Remember....every time the dogs blow off the end of the track, the dog that turns the corner is now in front. Might not have the front very long due to over competitive hounds stealing it back but none the less they have the front at some point.

As much as we may not want to acknowledge it, It's up to the judges to determine how much they will allow. There is pretty fair amount variant from one weekend to the next and the trial regulars know that and attend accordingly. It's not to suggest dishonesty...just different interpretation of the rules.

Ron simplified it pretty well by saying run what you like....the down side to that is you may not like what the predominant amount of judges like. If that's the case you find another format or prepare to get beat by hounds you view as faulty.

[Hare Chaser]

There are distinctly different styles that win, place, and finish in the Midwest. Not all are front runners that explode out of a check. Some are smooth and steady and capitalize on the mistakes of others.

Remember....every time the dogs blow off the end of the track, the dog that turns the corner is now in front. Might not have the front very long due to over competitive hounds stealing it back but none the less they have the front at some point.

As much as we may not want to acknowledge it, It's up to the judges to determine how much they will allow. There is pretty fair amount variant from one weekend to the next and the trial regulars know that and attend accordingly. It's not to suggest dishonesty...just different interpretation of the rules.

Ron simplified it pretty well by saying run what you like....the down side to that is you may not like what the predominant amount of judges like. If that's the case you find another format or prepare to get beat by hounds you view as faulty.

BINGO! Well said!

[WELLS WOODS]

If there is so much difference in them, why are some of the same dogs placing over & over under different judges in different states ? Our best dogs have foot with control. The front end dogs are doing a lot of work & if they bobble, there is another to grab it from them. We don't want dogs to just follow the track, we want them to run to catch. There are times during every chase that the dogs need to slow down to keep control, but there are times when they can run wide open. On certain rabbits, a slower style dog could get some score, but eventually they are going to need to have some foot to win most Mid-West trials. Don't go to a gun fight with a knife.

[BB Beagles]

What type of terrain is most of the mid west trials held on.
Reason I've asked is because in my area there is a lot of strip mine ground mainly (sericea grass), which is thick, especially when green.

[Ridge View]

FCGD AJ's Levitra
FCGD Musgrave's Bloomfield Duke
These two dogs never ran the front And consistently placed and won Duke also won HOY and the runoff with 26 little males when he was 7. Mr Wells I would never get on here and try to brag about my dogs but I just had to say something about this you said to name you one and I gave you two examples there are also other dogs that didn't always run the front and won as well. A rabbit dog will always find a way to put you back on track. Its has nothing to do with speed. And everything to do with brains

Both times I judged V in Arkansas he ran the front more often than not. As a matter of fact the first trial he ran up front all day in every pack. Showed foot with lots of control. He won the first trial and finished second to his brother the second trial and they both ran a ton of front that day. I liked them both that is for sure. I'm just saying I think he had more foot than maybe realized but he had the control to get the checks and drive.

[Show Me Kennels]

I'm not gonna say he was never in the front that just wasn't his preferred place in the pack he was a great check hound and got hooked when he did grab it but usually was never the fastest dog on the ground. Good check dogs will always be in the lead at some point but you do not have to dominate the front to finish in the Mid-West. I obviously like what I promote because its a smoother ride and a lot less work to keep them there.

[WELLS WOODS]

Mr. Musgrave, No where have I said that dogs have to dominate the front to win. How anyone would get that from my posts, I don't understand. I've always heard Levitra was footy & there is no way Duke or any dog won Mid-West HOY without having decent foot & running the front some.
BB, running is usually really good on strip mine land with sereca(spelling?) The rabbits run really big in the winter & early spring before it gets really thick. In the fall when it's thick, the running is still good, but harder for dogs to get through & judges to see. Jackson Co. Ohio, Southern IN., Wurtland, & Southern WV all used to run on terrain like this; still do I think.

[hard on a check]

I judged FCGD Musgrave's Bloomfield Duke twice, Once at a spring trial at North Central,the scenting conditions were great that day,the running was big an strong,Duke got out footed that day, JJ an I agreed that he didn't do anything wrong he just didn't have enough score and he didn't make it out of the first series. The second time I judged him was at a fall trial in Coshocton,the scenting conditions were average that day,a little dry with the leafs on the ground,the running was kinda choppy circles,Duke looked very good,consistently putting the pack back on the rabbit,great check dog, Bush an I agreed and he won the trial that day. Duke is a 6-7 on speed,he's definitely not the kind of dog that's gonna win from the front,he's a solid check dog,obviously he'll get a piece of the front at times when he grabs a check,but he's not a front runner by no means.

I also judged FCGD AJ's Levitra at West Virginia,the running got better as the day went along,the last two rabbits that we ran in the Winners Pack were big strong races,Earl an I both really liked Veet that day,but on those last two rabbits he didn't get much score,we picked him up NBQ,he was a solid check dog,could make the turns,but got out footed on those last two rabbits,Veet was a solid 7 on speed. I'm not saying he didn't get bits an pieces of the front when grabbing a check or making a turn,he had enough foot to compete, but he definitely wasn't a front end type dog.

Both Duke an Veet were similar in their running styles,both rabbit dogs,I would definitely feed either one of them.

But as far as foot an style goes, like I said before it's about the five best dogs of that day,because every day an every trial is different.
It all depends on that particular day, the best dog of the day should always win regardless of foot an style.

[WELLS WOODS]

There you go. Two solid check dogs that run 6-7 on speed were not fast enough to win on good scenting days in the Mid-West. 6-7 to me is decent foot & probably as fast or faster than a lot of dogs out there that people hunt with.

[hard on a check]

There are distinctly different styles that win, place, and finish in the Midwest.

" True "....You can have success with a fast dog that's a 10 on speed that runs with an aggressive competitive style, you can have success with a medium speed dog that's a 6 on speed that runs with a conservative controlled style.
The same speed an style doesn't win every trial, a lot depends on the day,scenting conditions,weather,terrain,buck rabbit/doe rabbit,etc etc.
I really like the Midwest,the best dogs I've ever personally seen run have been at Midwest field trials.
I don't believe speed is everything, although it is important to have enough speed to compete,but what's more important is the dogs that have the most positive marks on the score card at the end of the day. As long as the best five dogs of that day are on the table that's all that matters regardless of their speed an style.

[Show Me Kennels]

da da da da thats all folks!!