Sorry Swampman couldn't ' think of your Handle when writing about your female that turns down Deer, she may be a Weir Creek females, they seem to be Trash Proof! My kind of gun Dog, also good one to breed for more Trash Proof, pups.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>..
Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Aubrey Holcombe
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:54 am
- Location: Royston, Georgia
- Contact:
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Mr. Holcombe,
Shock collars are not allowed in trials, however tracking collars are permitted.
Bonnie nor her offspring that I kept (Mandy and Breezy), have ever taken trash. In fact, the last hound that opened on deer was my old Hammer male at 7 months old. This was long before I had shock collars and I persuaded him that I did not approve. He never took another and lived to be 12.
Bonnie just finished her FCGD with 4 wins in her last 5 SPO trials, in 4 different states, under 8 different judges on both sod and snow as well as cottontail and hare.
More importantly, she is my #1 hunting hound and is retired from trialing as such. Her two daughters are doing very well and following in her footsteps.
They need to be proven hunting hounds first before I trial them or breed them.
They are not Weir Creek but do go back to a very old bloodline.
Feel free to PM me your email address and I can fill you in if interested.
Would enjoy conversing with you, remember reading about you back in the 90"s in the Rabbit Hunter.
That picture of you in the bibs walking away is stuck in my mind forever.
Shock collars are not allowed in trials, however tracking collars are permitted.
Bonnie nor her offspring that I kept (Mandy and Breezy), have ever taken trash. In fact, the last hound that opened on deer was my old Hammer male at 7 months old. This was long before I had shock collars and I persuaded him that I did not approve. He never took another and lived to be 12.
Bonnie just finished her FCGD with 4 wins in her last 5 SPO trials, in 4 different states, under 8 different judges on both sod and snow as well as cottontail and hare.
More importantly, she is my #1 hunting hound and is retired from trialing as such. Her two daughters are doing very well and following in her footsteps.
They need to be proven hunting hounds first before I trial them or breed them.
They are not Weir Creek but do go back to a very old bloodline.
Feel free to PM me your email address and I can fill you in if interested.
Would enjoy conversing with you, remember reading about you back in the 90"s in the Rabbit Hunter.
That picture of you in the bibs walking away is stuck in my mind forever.
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gunslinger
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 pm
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Daddy rabbit I respect your experience and knowledge with your dogs but can't for the life of me accept your claims of being trash proof. If you would have said anything but trash proof I might have gone along with you. Your dogs might have less inclination to run off but game but no hound or line of hound is perfect and that is your claim if you say they are trash proof. I promise you if you send a couple of them up here I can get one to run deer, fox, coyote, or field mice. I'm sure your little dogs are pretty good rabbit dogs but they're not perfect. You're starting to sound like my old friend Harrell Whitener somewhat, except he never claimed his hounds were perfect.
Have a good one,
Neal Stocks
Have a good one,
Neal Stocks
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rabbitearl
- Posts: 1024
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:32 am
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Swampman sound like you have some great dogs to hunt with. But what I am saying about trials is. I hear some that takes dogs to a trial and the very first thing they say. I hope there are no deer around. there two of these dogs that love deer. I just wonder how many people that dose this and how many dogs has won a trial knowing there dog will run anything. Or how many has won a trial never knowing there dog will run deer because they never been around one. Just in a rabbit pen all there life. I have hear of this. A person would take a deer runner to a trial in hoping to get your dog to run a deer. If this is true or not. I don t know. But I would love to see dogs that just runs a rabbit.
I held a AKC spo trial one time at my club. The trial was held in pen 1 an 6 an plenty of rabbits but no off game. Now the dogs that place that day. Could we really say.Dogs you can take rabbit hunting or find me another trial in a pen full of rabbits. Yes sir. that dog can run a rabbit BUT. But, That what I am looking at an I know I am not by myself.
I love the dogs and the fellowship at trials. But at the end of the trial. The dogs that place. Don t tell me nothing about that dog to go rabbit hunting with.
Gunslinger, I believe in D. R. About 18 years ago after buying high dollor pups here and there having to put e collar on them. I had a man came to me with a male dog that he wanted to sell.He deer hunting with beagles and this male would not run deer.He wanted 100 dollors for the male so I got him. He was out of wright line ozzie and ozzie what I hear never ran a deer. So I breed to a female that would not run nothing but a rabbit and had six pup and out of the 6 pups they too never ran nothing but a rabbit. I kept 4 females and sold the other two that never ran nothing but a rabbit.I am talking about rabbit hunting were the off game was and not many rabbits. The last one die two years ago. If was so nice to go hunting no e collar and knowing there on a rabbit and they hunting with me not me hunting with them.Handle outstanding. So I do believe in it. I was at a trial one time and there was a man there that said. I ve got dogs that will not run a bluetail ( swamprabbit) They just want run one. Cotton tail is the only thing they will run. So I too believe there are dogs out there that will throw out trash proof dogs. If not were do some of these dogs come from.
I held a AKC spo trial one time at my club. The trial was held in pen 1 an 6 an plenty of rabbits but no off game. Now the dogs that place that day. Could we really say.Dogs you can take rabbit hunting or find me another trial in a pen full of rabbits. Yes sir. that dog can run a rabbit BUT. But, That what I am looking at an I know I am not by myself.
I love the dogs and the fellowship at trials. But at the end of the trial. The dogs that place. Don t tell me nothing about that dog to go rabbit hunting with.
Gunslinger, I believe in D. R. About 18 years ago after buying high dollor pups here and there having to put e collar on them. I had a man came to me with a male dog that he wanted to sell.He deer hunting with beagles and this male would not run deer.He wanted 100 dollors for the male so I got him. He was out of wright line ozzie and ozzie what I hear never ran a deer. So I breed to a female that would not run nothing but a rabbit and had six pup and out of the 6 pups they too never ran nothing but a rabbit. I kept 4 females and sold the other two that never ran nothing but a rabbit.I am talking about rabbit hunting were the off game was and not many rabbits. The last one die two years ago. If was so nice to go hunting no e collar and knowing there on a rabbit and they hunting with me not me hunting with them.Handle outstanding. So I do believe in it. I was at a trial one time and there was a man there that said. I ve got dogs that will not run a bluetail ( swamprabbit) They just want run one. Cotton tail is the only thing they will run. So I too believe there are dogs out there that will throw out trash proof dogs. If not were do some of these dogs come from.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
I've always had this question in my mind, when people say their hound will come back to them and tell on trash runners. Now I've had hounds that never cared for trash running, they just never went with those that did but they never came back to me to tell me something, they just continued to hunt for a rabbit in the area I was in. I always figured if a hound came back to you when a trash race started, that hound had been corrected or shocked at some point and that fear of correction had stuck in it's mind and they didn't want a repeat. But still I hear people say their natural trash proof hound will come sit by them telling on a trash runners. That just don't seem like a natural response for a hound that hasn't been corrected on offgame and if that's the case, that hound ain't naturally trash proof.
I personally think a really good hunting and jumpdawg has a gaminess in it's nature. These kind can be easily mislead if under the wrong influence of packmates or if place where the offgame far outnumber the intended game. I always started my hounds in the open fields away from the deer woods. It always seemed if you could get them the right start on the right game, they never gave much trouble afterwards and they do learn from the example their packmates display(corruption breeds corruption).
I remember my friend Mike Yates telling he never broke a hound off trash in over 30 yrs of breeding the same line of hounds. He had a market for every trash runner and only bred from those that met his standard. I figured if it could be so that a trash proof line could be bred, that was the way to do it, but still it seem more a tendency to not trash rather than a full fledged trash proof possibility, to many other factors come into play in the finished product of what a hound will be. I think odds and percentages still have their say but you can put those odds and percentages in your favor, it's the best that we as breeders can do.
One rain does not a wet Spring make...
I personally think a really good hunting and jumpdawg has a gaminess in it's nature. These kind can be easily mislead if under the wrong influence of packmates or if place where the offgame far outnumber the intended game. I always started my hounds in the open fields away from the deer woods. It always seemed if you could get them the right start on the right game, they never gave much trouble afterwards and they do learn from the example their packmates display(corruption breeds corruption).
I remember my friend Mike Yates telling he never broke a hound off trash in over 30 yrs of breeding the same line of hounds. He had a market for every trash runner and only bred from those that met his standard. I figured if it could be so that a trash proof line could be bred, that was the way to do it, but still it seem more a tendency to not trash rather than a full fledged trash proof possibility, to many other factors come into play in the finished product of what a hound will be. I think odds and percentages still have their say but you can put those odds and percentages in your favor, it's the best that we as breeders can do.
One rain does not a wet Spring make...
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gunslinger
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 pm
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
SR Patch you are correct , a dog that comes to you when others are running trash has been corrected and that's a natural response. I want mine to keep running a rabbit if the others go off. I still say nothing in this world is fullproof or perfect especially hounds. You may get a high percentage that won't trash but not 100 percent.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
No he isn't, just because you haven't had a naturally trash free hound, doesn't mean they are a fallacy.
I expect my hounds to hunt with me, not the other way around.
rabbitearl,
I understand what you are saying and do admit to seeing many hounds at LPH trials that never see the outside of a pen.
I actually know some that like deer in the pens to condition their dogs on for LPH trials.
I spend a lot of time yard training and socializing my pups before I even think about getting them started on rabbits.
I rarely run my young hounds with any hounds but my own until they are 2 years old.
I expect my hounds to hunt with me, not the other way around.
rabbitearl,
I understand what you are saying and do admit to seeing many hounds at LPH trials that never see the outside of a pen.
I actually know some that like deer in the pens to condition their dogs on for LPH trials.
I spend a lot of time yard training and socializing my pups before I even think about getting them started on rabbits.
I rarely run my young hounds with any hounds but my own until they are 2 years old.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Rowdy, in your eagerness to disagree I think you missed the point of our post...lol
no one said there are not trash proof hounds, only that it is not natural for a hound to come sit at your feet when hounds riot offgame, unless they've been corrected for it. And what does hounds being biddable have to do with whether they take a trash run or not?
I remember the last time I saw you hunting on the Island, you and Chuck were going off to find your hounds while ChuckR was loading up his hounds to leave. I guess that was just an off day for the hounds.
no one said there are not trash proof hounds, only that it is not natural for a hound to come sit at your feet when hounds riot offgame, unless they've been corrected for it. And what does hounds being biddable have to do with whether they take a trash run or not?
I remember the last time I saw you hunting on the Island, you and Chuck were going off to find your hounds while ChuckR was loading up his hounds to leave. I guess that was just an off day for the hounds.
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gunslinger
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 pm
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
You are not thinking rationally, I've had dogs that haven't ran deer but that doesn't mean they won't. You bring me a pup from your kennels and I'll get him to run something besides rabbits. Big difference in a dog that hasn't ran deer and trash proof. Anybody that makes the claim absolutely no pip from their kennel will run junk is dreaming. You guys can make these claims if you want but I live in the real world and perfect dogs don't exist.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Where did I say they come back and sit at my feet?
I never claimed that you can't get one of my hounds to run trash neither, in fact, and I quote, "With that said, I'll probably have a trash run tonight!
"
Mandy did not win that trial but it sure felt like she did to me, her turning down those deer races under that pressure and coming back to check in and continue to hunt made me pretty happy!
And no, she has never been corrected for trash running.
As for our encounter on the Island, the only time I ever had to go get one of my hounds was the very first time I was ever there on the very first day, Pearl got lost on a long run that afternoon.
She was only 1 1/2 years old and it was her first time ever running with a strange big pack, we turned out the next morning and she joined back in.
Even though you weren't with us running, and as far as I know, there was no deer race but since you are insinuating it was, it must have been then.
Feel free to go back and read what I wrote and quote it.
rabbitearl,
I apologize if my entering this conversation has taken it off track, that was not my intention.
I don't know where you are from, but if you ever want to make the trek to WI., we can get together to run hounds, there are plenty of deer here as well as yotes, wolves, bobcats, bear, porkies, etc.
I never claimed that you can't get one of my hounds to run trash neither, in fact, and I quote, "With that said, I'll probably have a trash run tonight!
"Mandy did not win that trial but it sure felt like she did to me, her turning down those deer races under that pressure and coming back to check in and continue to hunt made me pretty happy!
And no, she has never been corrected for trash running.
As for our encounter on the Island, the only time I ever had to go get one of my hounds was the very first time I was ever there on the very first day, Pearl got lost on a long run that afternoon.
She was only 1 1/2 years old and it was her first time ever running with a strange big pack, we turned out the next morning and she joined back in.
Even though you weren't with us running, and as far as I know, there was no deer race but since you are insinuating it was, it must have been then.
Feel free to go back and read what I wrote and quote it.
rabbitearl,
I apologize if my entering this conversation has taken it off track, that was not my intention.
I don't know where you are from, but if you ever want to make the trek to WI., we can get together to run hounds, there are plenty of deer here as well as yotes, wolves, bobcats, bear, porkies, etc.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
Where did I say, "Rowdy said his hound comes sit at his feet"? but I have heard this said by others. I just stated that I never understood that action by a hound that hadn't been corrected.
I didn't join this discussion to debate you, I had thought we were friends, but this is not the hunted hare and Bud is not here to ban me.
If your impression of a hound checking in is the same as telling on trash runners, I can see that as a sign the hound wasn't interested. But like gunslinger said, most honest hounds will just ignore a trash run and keep on hunting. If they happen to check in after hounds have left out on track, then you suspect something may be wrong.
We are often humbled by what we expect and what hounds do, especially when we brag about them...lol.
Have a good day.
I didn't join this discussion to debate you, I had thought we were friends, but this is not the hunted hare and Bud is not here to ban me.
If your impression of a hound checking in is the same as telling on trash runners, I can see that as a sign the hound wasn't interested. But like gunslinger said, most honest hounds will just ignore a trash run and keep on hunting. If they happen to check in after hounds have left out on track, then you suspect something may be wrong.
You see, your quote isn't about a difference of opinion, when gunslinger said he agreed with me on an opinion I had, you didn't say you disagree or have a different opinion, you said "No he isn't(right), just because you haven't had a naturally trash free hound, doesn't mean they are a fallacy.
I expect my hounds to hunt with me, not the other way around.
I've been fortunate to own a number of trash free hounds growing up and those that weren't, eliminated themselves(before shock collars). Getting them the right start and set well on the intended game, running them with straight honest rabbitdawgs the first couple yrs give most any the chance to develop into good hounds.No he isn't(right), just because you haven't had a naturally trash free hound, doesn't mean they are a fallacy.
I expect my hounds to hunt with me, not the other way around.
We are often humbled by what we expect and what hounds do, especially when we brag about them...lol.
Have a good day.
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
This is what I was referring to when I wrote "No he isn't".gunslinger wrote:SR Patch you are correct , a dog that comes to you when others are running trash has been corrected and that's a natural response.
Since you wrote Rowdy, I assumed you were referring to me, my mistake.S.R.Patch wrote:Rowdy, in your eagerness to disagree I think you missed the point of our post...lol
no one said there are not trash proof hounds, only that it is not natural for a hound to come sit at your feet when hounds riot offgame, unless they've been corrected for it.
Are you suggesting I had something to do with you getting banned?S.R.Patch wrote:this is not the hunted hare and Bud is not here to ban me.
I can assure you, I had nothing to do with it.
Completely agree!S.R.Patch wrote: Getting them the right start and set well on the intended game, running them with straight honest rabbitdawgs the first couple yrs give most any the chance to develop into good hounds.
If I came off as bragging, that was not my intention. I firmly believe to let the hounds do the talking, as soon as you brag on them, they'll make a liar out of you.S.R.Patch wrote: We are often humbled by what we expect and what hounds do, especially when we brag about them...lol.
Have a good day.
I was merely trying to point out that there are trash free hounds that finish in field trials that are true hunting hounds as well.
Good day to you as well.
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gunslinger
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 pm
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
My rebuttal was to DR and his claim of a trash free line of dogs , he claims his pups are born straight and deer proof and I said I could make one run junk no more no less. Swampman you jumped in to defend DR's claims which are false because a perfectly trash free line of beagles does not exist.
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Aubrey Holcombe
- Posts: 593
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:54 am
- Location: Royston, Georgia
- Contact:
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
It's good to know, that you have a line that you can train to run Deer, not many folks here in my part of Ga. looking for someone to train their Pips, oh yes I see you ever spell your pups differently than us Red necks !!
Like I said up front with the Mentality of some folks, I knew one would show Up!
Never said my hounds was perfect, far from that, just don't run Trash.
Take care of the pips, and you behave yourself my Friend.. If I see any one looking for a Deer dog,, I highly recommend you.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
Like I said up front with the Mentality of some folks, I knew one would show Up!
Never said my hounds was perfect, far from that, just don't run Trash.
Take care of the pips, and you behave yourself my Friend.. If I see any one looking for a Deer dog,, I highly recommend you.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia
Re: Trials,The easy one or the hard one?
D.R. not many here wanting one to be trained to run trash either. I'll take one from D.R's line with the propensity to run rabbits over trash all day long. I also believe that there is more to it as we hear folks talk about brains but fail to associate that with trash running. Being over competitive and having BIG EARS also come into play with overriding their brain to pursue the game they were bred to pursue. I suppose that is why beagles are called rabbit dogs. Of course, any hound can be trained to pursue anything one wants including drugs, vegetables, food and even people but it is what they do naturally without much of man's intervention that tells the tale. It is my opinion that minus man's intervention and if left to nature the little beagle hound would pursue the game their pack could most easily catch and eat which would be the rabbit. Everything loves rabbit on the diner table as they are the easiest to catch over other food sources. Putting them on the table takes brains of the pursuer, both man and beast.