A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
mybeagles wrote:A hound that needs good conditions to run is an "idiot" in my opinion. The reason we think cold trailers are "cold trailing" is because of so many hot nosed idiots that can't smell. Babbling idiot and cold trailer are not synonymous. The reason so many trailers hate a cold trailer is it exposes their dogs lack of nose.
Mybeagles, You nailed it.
Some beaglers will figure that out in their lifetime. However, like a hound with no nose, some will never understand and just me too.
How is a dog that lacks nose an idiot? They lack nose not brains. By the way, just because a hound doesn't open until the rabbit is up doesn't always mean it lacks nose. If they can't run a jumped rabbit they may lack nose, but barking before the rabbit is up doesn't prove more nose, but less brains in my opinion. How much cold trailing before a rabbit is jumped do you allow when judging mybeagles? Do you demerit if they don't produce or score them thinking they are doing a good job by barking on old scent? If the rabbit is up under tough conditions then the dogs moving the line are not cold trailing, they are scoring & using their good nose for good use. Look out for the hounds that have the brains to keep quiet until game is up & then score more on tough scent than the ones that were barking before it was jumped. No dog is perfect & I won't cull or pick up a dog for barking a few times without producing, but the ones burning an old track up that doesn't have a rabbit running in front of it are the idiots; they lack brains. I'll take a hound with an average nose with plenty of brains over a strong nose hound with little brains. Of course I'd rather have a hound with a big nose with a ton of brains; so would everyone else I suppose. The more brains a hound has, the less he will open if he's not moving a rabbit that is up & running regardless of how much nose he has. I've seen a lot of great hounds when I used to judge. The best ones had strong noses with the brains to control their mouth. Brains in my opinion separates the good (average) hounds from the elite. Say scent is so good any dog can smell it, the hound with the most brains will out perform the others with better line control & checkwork. They figure out easy losses quicker & find checks some hounds just aren't smart enough to find no matter how much nose & desire they have. When scenting is really tough & only a few can smell it good enough to make progress, the hound with the most brains will know when to reach when needed & not waste time on an area that they have already covered. Also, there are times when a rabbit will squat in the check & hold tight; the smarter hounds will have the patience to come back & walk it out & jump it again. A lot of rabbits or checks never get found if there isn't some brains in your pack. That's when we pull out our list of excuses; in a hole, pregnant female (no scent), must have caught it, ran down a trail with no scent, baby rabbit, buddy's dog screwing up the race, etc...
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
I don't make excuses for dogs. They must produce a rabbit. Length of time is dependent on the situation. Dogs that fail to produce are demerited and often picked up. Some dogs have the ability to open on a track that was made earlier in the day and produce it, some don't. Dogs with this ability are priceless in the hunting scene when your hunting late in the day or rabbits are scarce. I do not demerit this type dog when others dogs in the pack are running out in front of this dog clearly smelling rabbit but refusing to bark until they have jumped it. The reason I say a dog that smells a movable track and fails to bark is an idiot is because they serve little purpose to the hunter. I can kick thickets and brush piles all day and jump rabbits (very typical practice at most field trials). I want the dog to produce the rabbits. Dogs that tongue on a movable track that leads to a jump produces more rabbits.
Ive judged trials where hot nosed dogs win and others that cold nosed dogs win. Its not personal, I do follow the rule book. Been to many trials where a dog that barks before the jump is immediately sent packing.....very unfortunate.
I think when field trials are conducted in often ideal conditions, with plentiful game and handlers are still jumping the game for the dogs we need to pause for a second and ask ourselves what we are promoting.....? Many have realized that the BEST bad weather dogs often don't make the best field trial dogs and that should raise red flags.
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
I don't make excuses for dogs. They must produce a rabbit. Length of time is dependent on the situation. Dogs that fail to produce are demerited and often picked up. Some dogs have the ability to open on a track that was made earlier in the day and produce it, some don't. Dogs with this ability are priceless in the hunting scene when your hunting late in the day or rabbits are scarce. I do not demerit this type dog when others dogs in the pack are running out in front of this dog clearly smelling rabbit but refusing to bark until they have jumped it. The reason I say a dog that smells a movable track and fails to bark is an idiot is because they serve little purpose to the hunter. I can kick thickets and brush piles all day and jump rabbits (very typical practice at most field trials). I want the dog to produce the rabbits. Dogs that tongue on a movable track that leads to a jump produces more rabbits.
Ive judged trials where hot nosed dogs win and others that cold nosed dogs win. Its not personal, I do follow the rule book. Been to many trials where a dog that barks before the jump is immediately sent packing.....very unfortunate.
I think when field trials are conducted in often ideal conditions, with plentiful game and handlers are still jumping the game for the dogs we need to pause for a second and ask ourselves what we are promoting.....? Many have realized that the BEST bad weather dogs often don't make the best field trial dogs and that should raise red flags.
Thank you! A voice of reason is added to the chorus. The field trials done right were very much intended to preserve and improve the gun dog first. Mans desire for titles, trophies and acclaim should never supersede the goal of preserving the necessary field requirements nor disillusion us as humans in regards to the reality of what a true gun dog is and how it is preserved. Genetic inheritance is the foundational key to the enablement of the desired abilities for any hunting dog of any breed no matter what the game being pursued is. Brains are most critical when it comes to obedience and handling but those who think that a canines brains supercede it's genetically inherited abilities and traits are disillusioning themselves and anyone else who is willing to believe it.
My opinion the kind of hound that wells is trying to promote is much more desirable. I've seen big nosed dogs follow a old track for a long ways and never open there mouth but I've also seen them give mouth the whole way and a lot of the time they end up getting the rabbit up, sometimes they do sometimes they don't but a dog that starts telling you about it as soon as they even think they smell a rabbit is a idiot in my book because all there doing is pulling every other hound you have on the ground to them and they may get the rabbit up and they may not. Everybody kinda has there own idea what there looking for in a hound but when my dog opens his mouth I want know he has a rabbit up and I need to get my gun ready. Most of you guys been in this way longer then I have but that's just what I like out of a hound and I do believe that a smart hound will keep his mouth shut until he gets the rabbit up or is really close to getting the rabbit up big nose or not.
sparky wrote:A dog that gives tongue when they can make forward progress on a track is correct. A dog that blows holes in the ground or barks all over the place without making forward progress of the line is an idiot.
Let me start by saying I don't own a single beagle any longer.
I had a dog that won his first two trials he was ever put in at a young age against some other very very well thought of dogs. One was even a field champion and has went on to produce some outstanding dogs. I was just a gun hunter that got suckered into the trial scene cause I like dog and people. He was a great dog solo. Never seen a dog that could solo a rabbit like him. Smooth, quick checks when there was one and could find rabbits. Want to know what I did with that dog sold him. He wasn't the greatest gun dog but could win in the trials. Why? He'd charge to the front, could hold it down in April and May on great conditions and was snappy with the turns thus getting lots of points. What I saw of the trials was dogs being ran in optimal conditions that seldom offered a hunting situation. Been around a lot of gun hunters I don't know many that turn out 6 dog packs in rough winter conditions like we get here in Michigan. Why because its tough that's why. You get the best races with 4 dogs and under and most of the time a good brace is the best gun hunt. I enjoyed trials for many reason. I love competition, I'm competitive as hell... I like talking to other houndsmen, I liked seeing other dogs go. Would I go to a trial to pick out the best gun dog? Absolutely not! Do I think there are dogs there that are top notch gun dogs certainly do. In my opinion trials do not promote a true hunting situation. Is it a fun way to get guys with dogs together and enjoy a day in the field certainly. If I want to judge a gun dog it will be in the swamp likely with snow over my boots and they will be judged on their ability to jump, circle and produce game in front of the gun. This is my opinion but there are dogs that are good trial dogs, there are dogs that are good gun dogs there are very very very few that are both. Again just my opinion and I don't even run beagles anymore but was in the game awhile and will be back one day.
hounds... hare.... hunter.... bang... what gets better than that.
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
Thanks John O & good post Markday. I like a dog that I know when he opens it's time to load my gun. I don't need to know where the rabbit was 2 hours ago; I want to know where it is now. It is very hard to get the nose we need for tough conditions & have the brains to control their mouth on old lines, but we should keep striving for this caliber of hound. You can tell how much brains your dog has when hunting on a big morning frost. The dogs can get a ton of scent & it's hard to get the brains to be able to know what is & isn't a hot track. They will get less scent on a jumped rabbit than what the frost is holding on these days. I want a dog with enough brains to handle these situations without getting confused or suckered in on a bad line by faulty packmates.
Smitty, I'm sorry to hear your opinion of Mid-West trials. You never know what the scenting conditions will be on any certain day. I can't think of any way to improve the way a trial is conducted if it's done right other than the judges being more critical on hunt. We get caught up in the chase too much sometimes & need to remind ourselves that weak hunt is a very serious fault & make sure to judge their hunt closely before the rabbit is jumped. These dogs we trial get ran hard & I know they get tired, but desire & hunt is more important to a hunter than anything else. I remember judging a couple of your dogs in the little male class. I think you made the 9 dog winners pack out of 30 or so entries. We had some great running that day & if you stayed around to watch the two best hounds that day duke it out until the end you would have had to enjoy watching the amazing houndwork by FC Blackie's T-Rex & FC Sunset Scooter. Some thought Scooter won; some thought T-Rex won & it was hard to decide on the winner with both of them scoring with unbelievable driving & check ability; the rabbit could not shake them. That's a good problem to have though; having 2 winners worthy of the Blue ribbon.
Anyway, I think the best gundogs have won & placed the times I judged. Which dogs in each pack would we want if we were out gun hunting? Sometimes the best dog might have a minor fault or make a mistake now & then. Don't forget all the good things he has done that would have helped you be able to kill the rabbit if you were hunting. Are you going to take the dog that produces more for you to the truck because he messed up a little? I wouldn't. Judges should weigh the good & bad in each hound unless the bad is so serious that it is continually disrupting the progress of the pack or if a hound loses desire because of fatique & has nearly quit.
God bless the beagle man; keep 'em running boys. Mid-West bloodlines are in just about every hunter's kennel that I know. Try it, you'll like it. Good night.
Wells Woods Kennel Greg Wells
R.I.P. FC Brent's Prime Time FC Wells' Silver Spring FCGD Wells Woods Valentine
I like a dog that I know when he opens it's time to load my gun. I don't need to know where the rabbit was 2 hours ago; I want to know where it is now. It is very hard to get the nose we need for tough conditions & have the brains to control their mouth on old lines, but we should keep striving for this caliber of hound. You can tell how much brains your dog has when hunting on a big morning frost. The dogs can get a ton of scent & it's hard to get the brains to be able to know what is & isn't a hot track. They will get less scent on a jumped rabbit than what the frost is holding on these days. I want a dog with enough brains to handle these situations without getting confused or suckered in on a bad line by faulty packmates.
Regardless if it's a hot jump or a 30 yard cold trail you can load your gun. It's going to take a few minutes to get full circle. Knowing where a rabbit was 2 hours ago is a great indicator of where the rabbit is sitting. Hence why they jump more rabbits nearly every time out.
I don't disagree.....dogs must produce with high percentage. No dog is 100%. Rabbits are not lost by early barks....late barks by over competitive hounds destroy most of the races but that fault is widely overlooked because the hounds on the front of the pack are the main culprits. You often hear....that dog runs a lot of rabbit....unfortunately they push so hard the lose lots of rabbits....ironically the cold nose hounds recover many of those loses while the hound that caused the loss makes wide swings ahead of the pack.
Hearing these responses makes it clear why the field trials look the way they do....good and bad depending on what side of the fence your on.
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Greg your absolutely right. One of my favorite trials I ever attended was watching Sunset Scooter at North Central. Both of my dogs were picked up in the winners pack and 100% rightfully so they weren't the best dogs there that day by a long shot! Scooter flat out put on a flat out show. I'm not saying I don't like Midwest trials if you took that from my post you read it wrong. I like a lot about trialing. The ability to put a lot of smart houndsmen in a small area, get to see other dogs, get to have a fun day in field with peers etc. I don't connect field trialing to owning a dog that can produce in the heart of winter where I live under the gun. I just don't. The reasons I don't is because nobody and I mean nobody I know walks out at 10 to -15 and drops a 6 dog pack to hunt hare or cotton tail. Its unheard of. However that is how we compete our dogs. I'm not saying there is a better way with all the logistics that go into a field trial I've been around it and I know the nightmare of getting through a pack of 35-50 dogs. To do it right it takes time. I'm not even saying all FC or dogs that consistently place can't run a rabbit in the heart of winter here but I'd say there are plenty and to me that is discouraging. Trust me I've owned them I've placed and I've seen them have days they couldn't run a rabbit ten feet on the two days out of the week I got to grab a gun and head to the swamp. These dogs are good dogs and anyone would be proud to own them. In my opinion the test of our dogs ability should not be in March, April and May. I know why it is. I understand it and get it why its done that way. I got a phone call from someone in Ohio after I made that post above. He wanted to know what I thought could be done to equal that out some. I dont' have the answers for that. Many smarter houndsmen and beaglers that have ran many successful trials maybe could have a voice that isn't me. I think I'd like to see a dog before getting his FC Title, Jump run and circle a rabbit to the gun during his home states gun season! Even then some could slip through the cracks. Trials serve a very nice purpose and I think they are great however I don't equate them with finding the best gun dog sorry I just don't. That is my opinion and it always seem to wrankle a trialer. I don't feed your dogs and you don't feed mine. If your dogs makes you happy I'm happy for you. Just like you might like seafood I might like steak we have differences in what we like in a dog. Makes neither of us right or wrong as far as I'm concerned.
hounds... hare.... hunter.... bang... what gets better than that.
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
SMITTY1233 wrote:Greg your absolutely right. One of my favorite trials I ever attended was watching Sunset Scooter at North Central. Both of my dogs were picked up in the winners pack and 100% rightfully so they weren't the best dogs there that day by a long shot! Scooter flat out put on a flat out show. I'm not saying I don't like Midwest trials if you took that from my post you read it wrong. I like a lot about trialing. The ability to put a lot of smart houndsmen in a small area, get to see other dogs, get to have a fun day in field with peers etc. I don't connect field trialing to owning a dog that can produce in the heart of winter where I live under the gun. I just don't. The reasons I don't is because nobody and I mean nobody I know walks out at 10 to -15 and drops a 6 dog pack to hunt hare or cotton tail. Its unheard of. However that is how we compete our dogs. I'm not saying there is a better way with all the logistics that go into a field trial I've been around it and I know the nightmare of getting through a pack of 35-50 dogs. To do it right it takes time. I'm not even saying all FC or dogs that consistently place can't run a rabbit in the heart of winter here but I'd say there are plenty and to me that is discouraging. Trust me I've owned them I've placed and I've seen them have days they couldn't run a rabbit ten feet on the two days out of the week I got to grab a gun and head to the swamp. These dogs are good dogs and anyone would be proud to own them. In my opinion the test of our dogs ability should not be in March, April and May. I know why it is. I understand it and get it why its done that way. I got a phone call from someone in Ohio after I made that post above. He wanted to know what I thought could be done to equal that out some. I dont' have the answers for that. Many smarter houndsmen and beaglers that have ran many successful trials maybe could have a voice that isn't me. I think I'd like to see a dog before getting his FC Title, Jump run and circle a rabbit to the gun during his home states gun season! Even then some could slip through the cracks. Trials serve a very nice purpose and I think they are great however I don't equate them with finding the best gun dog sorry I just don't. That is my opinion and it always seem to wrankle a trialer. I don't feed your dogs and you don't feed mine. If your dogs makes you happy I'm happy for you. Just like you might like seafood I might like steak we have differences in what we like in a dog. Makes neither of us right or wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Thank you. You've expressed pretty much all of the way I think about the trial dog/gun dog conversation. I'm grateful for many, many of the good traits a good trial dog brings to the table. I've just recently bought a very nice 13 month old male that is as good as I could possibly ask him to be at this age. He's out of some sort of the finest LPOH Blood there is that runs deep into his ancestry. At this point he appears to have a very good nose and Is very settled for his age. I'll know much more about what he is after this coming winter. You are spot on with your comments on running on snow. I live and hunt in Northern New England and there are days when two dogs, are one to many. Those days you better have equally matched dogs in style and build or else your running is going to be hindered greatly.
S R Patch
Thank you very much for sharing that link to "The Beagle in America and England". Very interesting reading and especially enjoyed the contribution of E.C.Hare in his section"Hare Hounds Trials and Judging"
Really makes you think, when you realize the comments being made were in regards to beagles of 100 years or more ago.
