gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

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Shady Grove Beagles
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Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:56 pm
Location: east,Tn..

gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

I see on these boards where folks are constantly going back and forth trying to figure out whether gun dogs can trial,whether trial dogs can be gunned. Who wants fast,hard driving,run-to-catch hounds and who thinks the line control,tight check,grub -it-out hounds are what's needed. Who has the best for snow,swamps,hare or cotton tail.Which association or format promotes the best hunting dogs;Mid-West,Northern Michigan Hare Association,Pennsylvania Gundog Association,United Beagle Gundog Association,Deep South and Large Pack in the Northeast ??
This hunting season I spent a week in northern Vermont hunting with a friend who has 3 hounds that were bred by and purchased from two Wisconsin breeders/trialers/hunters.He also has a beagle that came from a Vermont breeder/hunter/trialer.He also has 1 from me that was bred here in Tennessee.I don't believe he's ever entered a beagle in a trial.
I hunted the next week with a friend in New Hampshire who has 2 females he got from me here in Tn. He's never entered a dog in a field trial.
We killed all the hare we wanted behind our hounds.
Two weeks ago I went out on the road and my first stop was at Jessamine County Beagle Club's licensed trial.I entered 3 females [none had ever been in a trial].None placed.
I then traveled out to western Kentucky where I hunted with another friend who both gun hunts and trials regularly.We killed cottontails on the farms and killed some big swampers in the bottoms.Our dogs ran well together.
Leaving there I traveled out to west Tennessee and spent several days hunting with a fellow I'd never met before.He probably would best describe himself as a "pleasure" runner.
He keeps beagles that are of lines almost completely different then mine.Those that most on this board would consider conservative/medium speed hounds.
Be that as it may,we ran swampers in the river bottoms in standing water and cottontails in the brier patches and killed some of each and the hounds accounted for their game.
Last couple of days I've been over in middle Tn. hunting with my friend Peter Burns.He's a serious rabbit hunter but none of his current hounds have ever seen a trial.We had super running and the hounds filled the game bags.
You've never heard of any of the hounds owned by myself,my friends in the northeast,Kentucky ,west Tn.or what Peter has in his kennel.No titles,no big competition wins,no super reproducers,nobody lining up for pups.
But what you will find is MEAT hounds.Hounds that if you had to depend on them to feed your family they could fill the bill.
Attachments
Peter Burns with several of our hounds-we've got the meat!
Peter Burns with several of our hounds-we've got the meat!
DSC02099 (676 x 507).jpg (122.8 KiB) Viewed 12335 times
Dana Robinson with Fly-very tough 2 year old
Dana Robinson with Fly-very tough 2 year old
DSC02097 (676 x 507).jpg (103.25 KiB) Viewed 12335 times
Peter,Amy,Matt---Amy's first rabbit.Couple of young people from Pete's church
Peter,Amy,Matt---Amy's first rabbit.Couple of young people from Pete's church
DSC02094 (676 x 507).jpg (104.42 KiB) Viewed 12335 times
Home of a true hunting beagle that run to catch

adirondackjoe
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Location: Ramsey, NJ

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by adirondackjoe »

your life is better than mine.

warddog
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Location: Jasonville, Indiana

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by warddog »

Shady, I believe that is what it is all about. Back many moons ago when my dad and grandfathers taught me how to rabbit hunt, which is what we did to put MEAT on the table, they taught us to position ourselves somewhere close to the spot the rabbit was started or jumped. Never were we ever taught to chase behind the dogs to see what was going on(chances are you aren't gonna see it all anyway) IN FACT we were scolded when we got too impatient and moved around a lot and were told we would turn the rabbit before it could be bagged. I guess it all is summed up by what one prefers to judge rabbit dogs by and putting meat on the table is exactly what they were bred to do in the first place. Years ago it was just too expensive to have something that did not produce it's keep. If folks have dogs that can consistently bring rabbits to the gun without freezing to death then IMHO they have a rabbit dog regardless of what style it runs.

Rabbit/Hareman123
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Rabbit/Hareman123 »

Good post Shady.

rabbitearl
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by rabbitearl »

RABBITS play a big different in this ? They both needs lot of rabbits to look good. Give me a place with lots of rabbits and the gun dog will be alright.. But give me a place were there is not many rabbit. I need a different kind of dog. The kind that Mark Carter Runs. You have to have some dogs to stay on it. I went to a place in 1986 and I had gun dog meat dogs. In 4 sat we kill 125 rabbits in the same place. You would had though I had the best gun dogs out there. Then take these same dogs later on and not many rabbits. You would had though these were the worst dogs out there. RABBITS play a big part in dogs. So if I went to a place with lots of rabbits.Meat dogs. But a place not many rabbits. Mark Carter dogs.

Markday
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Location: Piketon Ohio

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Markday »

11 years of rail roading in and 30 years left to go then I'll be traveling rabbit hunting myself I hope shady. As long as your hounds hunt and bring the rabbit back around to you the way you want them to that's all that matters. I just don't like a hound that causes lots of break downs. I like a constant good sounding rabbit race.

bear128
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Location: maryland

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by bear128 »

Man Rabbit Earl I find my dogs do better with less rabbits as far as staying on it for longer races . If you have places with a lot of rabbits you get one up and they move afew more there are rabbit tracks everywhere its hard for a pack of dogs to stay on the same rabbit always having splits or even three going at one time its a blast for sure with more shooting , but if they aren't running over a bunch of tracks they only have one track to look for and mine seem to lock in and drive that bunny better . Thats what I've noticed from my pack .

Shady Grove Beagles
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Location: east,Tn..

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

rabbitearl
Most times I have a hard time getting your point.Rabbits don't make the hound look good.....the hound makes himself look good!
Some of the best hounds I've ever seen go were the ones that could find the only rabbit,hare,coon,bear,etc. in the woods and account for their game no matter what.A good hound makes his own good running.
You killed 125 rabbits out of one cover in 4 weekends and then wonder why your hounds struggled there to have a good run??????
If you are going to blame the hound on the rabbit's performance or population I'd say it's your dogs that are in question.
Home of a true hunting beagle that run to catch

513Moogie
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by 513Moogie »

Great post Mr. Shady. I'm running one dog [Running Pregnant Bitch] 28 month old female medium to fast runner that holds the line well and can straighten out a cold track until its hot. She's been able to bring the rabbit around as many times as it takes to kill it and if you don't kill it, it's not her fault. Rabbits are far and few where I've been hunting so no cross tracking. It was my fault tonight hunting public hunting ground when I was looking the wrong way and she gave me a long stare as she ran to my left 25 yards in an open woods and just kept on going, no complaints. Meat dogs all my life. Amen.

rabbitearl
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:32 am

Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by rabbitearl »

I understand that you have not seen what I have over the years of having all these different style of dogs running in my pens. Maybe we are looking at two kinds of meat dogs To me a meat dog is run every time in hunting season with a gun going off. 10 to 15 dogs in a pack. Not just your dogs but two or three others dogs in there two. You just cannot stay up with the dogs. When a rabbit is shot down you have to hurry up and get there or the dogs will have lunch. I know some guy that have these kind of dogs and that what they want. A round twenty rabbits when they go hunting. These guys don t come to my trials in hunting season. There hunting. In the off season when they run in my pens they want the pen with lots of rabbits. Make the dogs sound and look good. Lost rabbit its not long there on another one. But take these same dogs and not but a few rabbits.Its a bad day. Its another bad smelling day. Look at trials. What is one thing they say. We have plenty of rabbits. Go to a trial with not plenty of rabbits. Its a bad day at the trial..

Look at this this way. Less say you have two 20 ac pens. One has two rabbits in it and the other one has 25in it.Were do you want to take meat dogs in it two kill rabbits. One of the best meat dogs I v ever seen. Could not run a rabbit but man could she find one. Some of the best dog I ve ever seen run a rabbit want much good to rabbit hunt unless you are a good jump dog and for me jumping a rabbit. I need lots of rabbits.

Its like I say. Give me the rabbits and I will take your culls and go rabbit hunting. Give me your best dogs and no rabbits and I will say home.

I know I am different. I would love to see a bed jump rabbit dog that cannot run a rabbit, than any dog that can run one. I hear the running dog every day. But that bed jumping meat dog.Its hard to find.
Bear128 I will agree with you on that. I was the same way with my last pack.
Thank yall I know some will not agree with me. But this is what I have seen

Aubrey Holcombe
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

Mighty good reading Mr. Shady I have done it all over the years and at 77 still Trying, but have to haul my hounds and myself on this Ol Kubota RTV 900 4x4 these days ! I see more good races on that old Kubota, than I ever thought that could be seen!!

Keep up the good Reports.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

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BB Beagles
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by BB Beagles »

I'm going throw my 2 cents in. First and foremost, my dogs have to be gun dogs first, Trial dogs second. What I mean by saying that is I want them to thrive both in the field hunting and in the field competing. Is there a difference in a meat dog and hunting dog, yes. I have owned Hounds that were great gun dogs, but were lacking a lil competitiveness, which made it harder for them to excel in trailing. Were they bad dogs, NO, I would take them to the woods anyway with confidence. Same goes for some Hounds are more suitable just for trailing. I have come across many Hounds that I wouldn't dare take out in the field to hunt with, but yet these dogs perform well on the trailing circuit. Many factors take into play of that though, such as the style of hound (rough, clean, swinger, line control, mouthy, proper mouth, etc) and the format that there's partaking in. What I'm saying is the rules of a format can be hard on a hound in one format but might benefit if ran in another. So yes, I believe you have (gun dogs) (trial dogs) ( dog that strive in both).

Rabbit earl you said not having a lot of rabbits make your Hounds look bad. To me that's not the rabbit fault, sound more like hound fault. Is it because it showed they had less Hunt than you inticipated, were more mouthy? Also you used the analogy of the 20 acre pen with 25 rabbits in it. Let's do this, take your 20 acre pen, put 1 rabbit in it. Now put 1 hound in it. Is it going to be Katy bar the door? NA! It's going to be slow and boring till they finally get it up. Now same 20 acre pen, but this time let's put 20 rabbits in it and still 1 dog. This time the dog is more than likely jumping a rabbit, making noise, looking like million bucks. Why, cause there is more abundance of game, BUT your taking away from the big picture. That hound had better Hunt, perform, handle itself the same wether 1 or 20 rabbits in that pen.
You mentioned your 4 Saturday trip and 125 rabbits, well no wonder the dogs didn't look that great later on because you'll whacked and stacked them.
BONE BOX BEAGLES

Rabbithoundjb
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Rabbithoundjb »

Interesting post, Earl I also love to watch a jump dog work but if you have an abundance of game you don't need one. My dogs look better to me when there is less game, that's when you find out what you got. It sounds like it is more interesting to you when you are doing a lot of killing rabbits. That's ok don't get me wrong if that's what you like but I am more interested in good dog work than killing.

Shady Grove Beagles
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

rabbitearl
Sir,I mean you no disrespect.But you're always talking about running in pens and I for one am not a big fan of running in enclosures.Especially not 20 acre enclosures full of rabbits.
Hounds that are regularly run under those conditions are some of the faultiest hounds I've seen.
Now if you are talking 100-200 acre enclosures like some of the hare clubs have that is a different deal.Fill up a 20 acre pen with rabbits and even a sorry dog ought to look good.Maybe that's what the guys that come to your pen want is a whole lot of noise and dogs racing around constantly.I don't know? That's not what I mean by a "meat dog".
When I talk about a meat dog I have no experience with gun hunting 10-15 dogs at a time and I have never been on a hunt where we killed 20 rabbits in a day.
To me a "meat dog" could be run alone and still be considered a "meat dog". It's the dog that you can kill rabbits with routinely regardless of cover full of them or when they are scarce.
The reason this post came to my mind to make was because of all these following posts that have shown up on this board in the last couple of weeks.

1-Style of Trial
2-Clips of Mid-West style
3-Top Snow dog
4-Best Swamp water dogs bloodline
5-Looking for Progressive Pack style pups
6-Medium Speed with Control dogs
7-etc.,etc.,etc.
Everybody is looking for a specialist it seems.Lots of talk about style.Some seem to think that one trialing association or format has the better hunters.HUH?? Other think that one line has the inside track on snow,another on water and still others break it down to what kind of rabbit/hare /swamper or how many rabbits you have.
Couldn't really begin to tell you what my hounds are best at but we are eating rabbit dishes pretty regular this season and we always referred to a hound that could provide that as a "MEAT HOUND".
As always JMHO.
Home of a true hunting beagle that run to catch

Hare Chaser
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Re: gun dogs :vs: trial dogs---how about MEAT dogs? !

Post by Hare Chaser »

Heck all I want is a hound that can jump and circle a hare/rabbit like he or she was tied to it with a foot long rope any day I choose to go to the woods! And.............do it until I get sick of listening to it or get hungry. The latter would always happen first! Been looking for one of those for 40 years! Anyone got one like that for $200?

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