males or females?

[warddog]

SGB explained it exactly like the vast majority of us rabbit hunters do. I have yet to see one single person be able to raise a litter of 7 pups and give ALL 7 the time and effort needed to bring out each individuals best. They are ALL individuals and different although from the same litter. There are many who claim to be bettering the breed but we see very few of those with the name recognition as SGB stated in Branko Krapan of proving their line! Most of us following beagles are following a recognized line made by someone else that evidently has already perfected it to the point of getting us to own and keep it as something we like. Then there are others that have kennel name recognition and their kennel produces several winning dogs but not from the same exact crosses. I really do not understand the claim of bettering the breed, as all animals are a creature of nature and only mother nature has that ability. When man gets his nose into it he is merely the puller of the lever on the one armed bandit and mother nature will spin the genetic wheel however she so desires regardless of man trying to stack the deck. The has been many, many books written bout genetics and much has been learned and improvements made to suit one's individual taste BUT not as an entire breed. When one reads all these books and actually masters it in practice rather than theory we will ALL be looking to follow the best on earth. Seems this also applies to many things including people as ole Adolf Hitler thought his breed was the BEST of all! In my case it isn't a matter of commitment but a matter of what really matters in the grand scheme of things. I realized long ago that there is but one maker and all I can do is try to stack the deck in the favor of what suits me, knowing that may not suit others and that mother nature may not allow the replication of it. Once the science and technology of cloning becomes as common as the microwave and smart phones have become EVERYONE will have one of the best there is at the time! Until then I believe no man will be able to consistently produce litters of average rabbit hounds let alone better than the best. The judgement of that is in and of itself in the eye of the beholder as we all know there is no perfect living creature!

[Pine Mt Beagles]

I,,,have kept a litter of 6- and trained all of them to 18 months old,not only that but could sit down with you and explain very close ,to what one of my Hounds would Be,Before I made the Cross,,I am VERY HARD ON HOUNDS,I cull hard and Quick,,Pups born with over or under Bite ,crooked tails are what Serious Breeders call Bucket Pups ,or Give away to Children as Pets in other words not worth training.
Some Breeders Put out Hundreds of Pups in a year ,with only a hand full making a Fair or Average Rabbit Hound.The most I ever bred in one year was three and only did that once.most of the time, I bred two or none depending on how many teen agrers Was in the Kennel.

I was very Blessed and fortunate with my breeding,I tried Every Major Blood line,I could find,But,I never Changed My Hounds,I would Buy a Hound or Pup and see if it would Help my Breeding Program.In over 30 years of Breeding ,I only Breed to Two Champion Hounds ,And one of them was in my Kennel and Both Litters were mostly Culls.I think I got Two Average Hounds out of the two litters.
I never offered a Hound for Public Stud,

One thing, I have Seen Over Many Years is an Absolute Fact,,BLOOD WILL COME TO THE TOP GOOD OR BAD,And ever time Anyone Breeds A Hound the Intention Should Be to get Better than what You Have,,,,Bettering The Breed.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Pine MT. Beagles
Not trying to get in a wrangle with you but could you explain a few things to me.

Couple of your statements and I quote " I tried every major bloodline I could find,but never changed my hounds. I would buy a hound or a pup and see if it would help my breeding program".

Given the fact that there are so many different lines of hounds being bred,with so many different inherent traits, styles,characteristics how could you hope to achieve any kind of consistency in your kennel bringing in so many outside hounds and "never change my hounds"? Doesn't sound possible.

I quote "In 30 years of breeding,I only bred to two Champion hounds,one of them was in my kennel and both litters were mostly culls.I got two average hounds out of the two litters".

Are you blaming the "Champions" for your poor success? Were they proven reproducing studs before you used them? Did they come from a background of reproducers? If they had already shown their ability to produce above average pups when bred ,then what was the quality of females you bred? Were you breeding strengths to strengths and compensating for any known weaknesses? Two average pups from two planned litters is not a very good percentage at all.

I quote " I could sit down with you and explain very close to what one of my hounds would be before I made the cross"............

Just wondering.

[Rabbithoundjb]

Yep SGB I was thinking the same thing but I have been debating him on politics for years so I just let it go. Common sense is a flower that doesn't bloom in every garden. Truth is if all these bloodlines and breeders where so good/smart culling wouldn't be needed.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

Tried Every --->Major<<--Blood line,,to see if they were compatible with my Hounds and would add anything,,Because after you bred for awhile you MUST BREED OUT TO KEEP FROM INBREEDING.

I bred to -2- Champion Hounds,over all the years I bred Beagles.One was a Top Producer at the Time,But, Like all Stud Dogs for every one Average Rabbit dog you get, from Him there will be Many culls,Even IF you have a Very hood line of Breeding Females,The Other Hound I bred to was the Best Hound, I have seen in My Lifetime,But,Every Hound has a Weak Spot, I Bred Him twice got -4- Hounds out of the two litters that were just Rabbit Dogs, not Bad,but nothing extra.some liked the pups,I did not.

As for Knowing what one of my Hounds would be .
Any Breeder should know his Hounds.

For Example.

At A State Hunt once ,a Man I had never met came over to the table where some of us were eating lunch ,he had his Pedigree book with Him,
And Ask if I would look at a couple of them and tell,Him what I thought.And I was glad he did,, not many things,, I like better than talking dogs,But,this time was special,He had Bought a couple of my Hounds, and was considering breeding them to each other,and ask how I thought the pups would run and what to look for.
My opinion was not to make that cross,,,Because,the Hounds Would be upper medium speed Hounds,with good Mouths,Good Hunt,Good Nose.BUT,,would have to much mouth,especially on Frost,might take a Back Track a little way,and might get a little to big.

The Man,Said we already made the cross, a year ago, and sounds like you have been running with them.

I said I have, Many times.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Pine Mtn.Beagles
In regards to breeding to a champion hound and I quote you " A Top Producer at the time but like all stud dogs for every one average rabbit dog you get there will be many culls,even if you have a very good line of breeding females".

Dear sir,if you are using "a very good line of females" and a "Top Producer of the time" and all you can produce is "an average dog and many culls".
Then I respectfully offer that the dog you say was a "Top Producer" was in fact not much of a reproducer at all. Unless he was reproducing on other guy's hounds,just not your's. Lol
A top reproducing hound is just that---a top reproducing hound. He is not called that when he is producing "average hounds and many culls".
Branko's Jack of all Trades,Maravic's Blue Ninja,Branko's Ali-Baba,Branko's Heli-Prop,Ranger Dan,Green Bay Shooter,Cedar Beck Oliver,Greenwell's Reggie.Awful Bawlin Viagra,Wilson's Izzo have proven themselves to be top producing hounds.All of them have been ranked in Better Beagling magazine's top REPRODUCING sires list not just one time but for multiple years. They sure didn't make their well deserved reputations as top producers by throwing "average dogs and many culls".
And you want to talk about a "very good line of females". I just need to mention one, Green Bay Blue Bay. Bay has been awarded the top dam award for the past 5 years!!!! She was bred seven times to multiple studs and has produced top dogs in every litter with many placing and finishing.
I've been at this hound hunting game now for 50 years and yes I've seen many fellows that have average hounds and what i would call culls and they never seem to get anything better.But I will flat out guarantee you they are NOT using "TOP REPRODUCING STUDS and TOP REPRODUCING DAMS. If they are than they are doing something seriously wrong and ought to think about changing their methods.
As always JMHO.

[warddog]

I agree SGB, like you have been in this hound hunting thing for 50+ years. Like so many things in the hound world, a top reproducer is no different as it is all "in the eye of the beholder" until that eye becomes numerous eyes from many, many different beholders. That then becomes a "PROVEN" reproducer as the results have been tested under different criteria under stringent peer review. I would venture to say that the vast majority of TOP Stud dogs open to the public, bred numerous females that the Stud owner did not personally know other than the paperwork or the word of that beholder. When numbers of those get attention of making top or even better than average dogs then evidently that stud stamped himself in the gene pool consistently. SGB points out this can happen in both a Top reproducing male or a female. Not because of what the top reproducer is being bred to but in spite of them. I will say I am NOT a breeder and have NEVER had the opportunity to own a top anything so I'm beholden on the eyes of those many others.

[S.R.Patch]

S.R.Patch
I do have the finances and the time here in my retirement to raise and keep an entire litter and then to keep them through their starting on rabbits.I just don't have the inclination.
Make no mistake about it,my hounds are a very important part of my life and i have not been without a hunting dog of my own during the past 45 years.
Given that I will say that the dogs are not my life.I try to keep my priorities in line and the beagles are not at the top.Wife,children,grand children,church all come before the beagles.
Keeping an entire litter of say 7 pups which is what I'm raising right now to the point where I could truly evaluate them all at what 6 months,8 months,a year old? Would require a lot of time in the field,money for their care in regards to feeding,shots,worming,vet care,housing and clean-up and add 7 more dogs to the 4 I regularly keep. Plus it would take away from my 4 grown hunting dogs the time I enjoy running and gunning with them.I'm just not interested in committing that much to what I consider my hobby.
I'm a small backyard breeder / kennel never having kept more than 4-5 grown dogs kenneled at one time.When I raise a pup here and it turns in to the type of hound that suits me the dog is here for it's entire life.I don't buy,sell,trade or move dogs looking for the newest and greatest.
Raising and keeping and starting an entire litter is a good way to get the best pup out of that litter or at least the pup at 6 or 8 months old showing you the most, but still not necessarily a guaranty.
I like taking a single pup and putting all my time in to him / her and developing that connection that makes us a hunting team.
But,if you are really wanting to make SURE you are getting exactly what you desire in a hunting beagle and you've got the finances than don't fool with a pup or a litter.Go find yourself a reputable houndsman and buy a well started young hound from him.You'll be much further along in your quest.
Very few of us in this beagling sport are going to develop our own "line" of hounds or accomplish that grandest of all pinnacles in the sport of "bettering the breed".Not many Branko Krpans out there that can keep 100 beagles and raise a dozen litters a year ,keep 20-30 young hounds in the kennel,run them everyday,have 100's of fenced acres and thousands more acres accessible with unlimited hare to train on and then have a continuing customer base to sell all those young hounds he does not chose to keep at home.
I'll stick to trying to raise a litter every couple of years out of two above average rabbit dogs,keep one for myself that hopefully makes a good addition to my pack and try to place the others with hunters/trialers/pleasure runners who will give those pups all the opportunity and woods time to make them a lifetime quality hunting companion.
As always JMHO.

Shady, I respect your thoughts and opinion. I have differing thoughts and opinions that allow me to raise whole litters easier and less costly in time and money. It is not a choice, but a forced way in my nature. I feel the need to "see" the percentages from litters of pups all raised and given the same attention and opportunities from different crosses. We all have this "hound hobby" to varying degrees. I agree with you, I could just go buy my hounds, but would not buy a pup but a finished dog. That requires me to put all my trust in what someone else is doing tho... and leaves me at a disadvantage for my own future. Many have come to say they let their hound get away from them and now the breeder they bought from doesn't breed any more, they are starting over so to speak. By breeding my own, I see and know the natural tendencies of whats produced. There was a book written one time titled, "The Natural Rabbit Dog" I don't remember much of the content of the book but have always thought, what a wonderful title!
You speak of Branko and his large kennel, but I would debate that a group of small kennel houndsmen could do as well if they are of the same mind as to hounds and worked together towards a common goal. My father, brother and I have this same deal with cattle. We used to have gentle cattle, easy to calf, healthy strong stock but they got into registered breeding. That was fine but the papers got in the way of what made the job easy. We started having lot of vet visits pulling calves, wild natured animals that you couldn't trust to be among. The beef was there alright but the job became more costly and more hazardous. I often tried to make this point but many have to learn on their own. My mother is lucky to be alive today after being charged by a cow /w calf a week ago. It is a terrible thing, but each day I wake up I hope nothing bad happens today. The cost is becoming greater than the reward.
To my way of thinking there is nothing more satisfying than raising your own and seeing the percentages come your way. For 15 years I've read and heard discus the merits of hounds on this board. Some great individuals, but to me, the true evaluation comes from the numbers, the breeding's and the averages. We all hear about the great ones but the failures or so-so are rarely spoken of. When you speak of "bettering the breed" all have a say in what's to come.
As they say, with averages comes the rising tide that lifts all ships. or at least that's what I believe...

[Newt]

Patch: "To my way of thinking there is nothing more satisfying than raising your own and seeing the percentages come your way. For 15 years I've read and heard discus the merits of hounds on this board. Some great individuals, but to me, the true evaluation comes from the numbers, the breeding's and the averages. We all hear about the great ones but the failures or so-so are rarely spoken of. When you speak of "bettering the breed" all have a say in what's to come.
As they say, with averages comes the rising tide that lifts all ships. or at least that's what I believe.."

I agree with this message.

Success is in the eye of the breeder/owner. A "Producer" may be great in Indiana, New York, Maine or Canada. I no longer have the time nor inclination to chase what someone out of the area believes is a great hound. Words don't mean much when talking about hounds. Been there done that.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

Newt
Actually a good post,,I really don't care what someone else thinks about my hounds,if you breed trying to be like someone else,just buy his,Hounds,,

The above mentioned Stud Dogs,for Example,,is all opinion, mostly based on field trial results,which is basically a joke.I have saw some of them Run and owned pups out of some as well.Some of them showed up in my Pedigrees as well

[warddog]

From what I have read these little hounds have been around sense the 5th Century with modern day beagles from around the 1830's. What that tells me is that "bettering the breed" has been on the mind of man for hundreds of years and today man is still trying to do so. Maybe this is actually solely in the hands of mother nature and man is nothing more than a tool in which domestication has removed the survival of the fittest. Man picks and chooses from "HIS" perspective of what is best including those making crosses of so-called best to best. Even at that, it is a spin of the roulette wheel of what apples, grapes, oranges or pears will match up to turn out to be even average rabbit hounds in a single litter. Seen some mighty fine rabbit hounds from junk yard dogs that no one knew what they were out of. I've also seen some very good ones that were crossed up with terriers and a beagle. Back when I was a kid, better, was a dog that put rabbits on the table. Best was the one that done so consistently. We never paid much attention to style other than NOT wanting to freeze to death waiting on one to bring it to the gun.

[Newt]

Ward dog: "Back when I was a kid, better, was a dog that put rabbits on the table. Best was the one that done so consistently.'


Yeah but the rules have changed. How many rule books and how many "standards" within those rule books do we have today?
How many of those rules put emphasis on jumping rabbits, circling rabbits, and penalizing those dogs that that don't do either.

[warddog]

The rules were that you turned the dogs loose, they went hunting and when one opened up you put yourself in a position to put that meat on the table. Another rule was that you could only bag 5 as that was the limit. The only standards were that you didn't freeze to death while the dogs were doing it. NEVER ever ran behind any hound dog as we could tell by their bark what they were doing. If they did not produce meat for the table they didn't stay long as feeding them was an expense that was not bore by many.

[Hippy]

My Dear Uncle said it Best " A Gyp looks for it Twice a Year--A Male NEVER STOPS Looking" Nuff Said

Jim

[Beagle Huntsman]

I run both males and females in my pack. I always preferred the way they compliment each other, both in style and sound. I have read about packs in England and other places that run the sexes in different packs, which allows them to hunt females who are in season, but I have never wanted to run one group without the other.

Someone mentioned selling puppies as pets. I think the pet market is well flooded right now. If you are breeding for hunting hounds, they should be sold as such. Why allow a nicely bred hound to spend its life as a pet?

Big producing hounds do not ALWAYS produce good puppies. I think you can get a bad one or more from any cross. Much depends on how the female crosses with him.

Someone mentioned on another post about getting puppies with bad bites from a certain well known breeder. Well, the buyer and the breeder should have seen the bite at an early age, so both are at fault for not looking.

I cull my puppies based on conformation first. At about 8 weeks, I select the 2 or 3 I want to keep for field training. I have no need to keep the entire litter regardless of how level the bunch is. And some litters are like peas in a pod if you are breeding properly.