dogs with under bite

[simple pleasure]

whats the views on this on a dog with under bite what do you boys do with one I had a female with under bite didnt breed her gave her to gun hunter and he knew it years ago and people try to sell dogs like this

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Undershot bite [bulldog mouth ] or an overshot bite [ parrot mouth ] are considered a fault in the beagle breed and are genetic in nature and can be passed on.Recommendation is they should not be used for breeding stock.Of course there are degrees,with some being very slight and others being much worse.The optimum is for a scissors bite with the top teeth slightly overlapping the bottom teeth.

As always JMHO.

[Wicker's Beagles]

Enjoy them, Hunt them, Trial them do whatever you'd normally do with them, just don't breed them or produce any offspring from defective animals.

[Hare Chaser]

In some respects this is a really hard judgement call. Most physical defects are easily seen, thereby making them easier to identify and likely easier to breed out. There is no perfect hound, either in ability or in conformation. I'm not a breeder so I'm likely unqualified to make this statement............but I'm going to anyways! I think breeding out confirmation/appearance may be easier than breeding in style and ability for the very simple reason that it is easier and quicker to identify.

Style and ability on the other hand, take much longer to identify for the obvious reason of the time lapse required to assess the hounds ability and that of its littermates. If I had to choose between the lesser of 2 evils I'd be quicker to keep the hound that has some minor physical faults over the one who has equally faulty ability. Ability is harder to retain than conformation. Ideally, we need and want both but it's not all that common to find hounds of any kind who have it all wrapped up under one hide.

[warddog]

I've probably had or hunted with dogs with every physical fault one could have over my years of following them. Some were pretty good rabbit dogs too. I would take any of them over a dog that could not circle a rabbit by itself if it were tied to it any day. I've also seen many of them that would run with the best of them but do little to nothing by themselves. I am NOT a breeder although I have raised some litters over my years and showed some coonhounds. In the grand scheme of things bite would be at the bottom of my priority list of faults as it has no impact upon what physical stature it takes to do what the dog was on this earth to do. It is also NOT a big fault and in fact AKC does not single out over or under bites in their beagle breed standards. There is but one fault that disqualifies one in EVERY beagle registry I know and that is the fault of being over 15" but yet we see many, many of them and folks trying to trial and breed them. In my list of priorities as a rabbit hunter I consider those faults that disqualify a beagle from meeting the standards to begin with and then on faults that would physically impair them from doing what they are bred to do. I also see a lot of coke bottle headed beagles and short ears which do not prohibit it from hunting and circling a rabbit but it sure doesn't set well in the head and muzzle standards.

[Hare Chaser]

AKC will register dogs over 15". I believe UKC does as well. It's only field trial entry where they are denied.

Perhaps AKC denies show entries of over 15" dogs as well. Don't know and don't care.

[JacksonBoys]

What is your opinion when 1/2 the litter has a perfect bite and the other 1/2 has an under bite? Could the perfect bite dogs pass on the under bite that obviously came somewhere in the lineage.

[reddog1]

Yes! The pups with the good bite could very well throw pups with a bad bite. Same with cherry eye and stress induced mange.
Many years ago I had a bitch that threw cherry eye in some of her pups but I didn't realize it until her second litter when I bred her to a different male and the cherry eye was present in those pups as well. After taking care of the problem and what pups I could get back, I have not had a problem since.
Alot of people would have had the cherry eye removed and and moved on but I wanted to end the cycle.

Just my opinion

Reddog

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Sure it could be passed on. If it appears, it means that there is a genetic propensity for it in the two dogs that were bred.When the genes of two dogs are combined during the mating there are literally hundreds of combinations that can and do occur even among litter mates within the litter.Just because two male puppies are brothers is no indication that they are the same genetically.That's why one may turn in to a super reproducer and the other produce nothing of note.That's why it is laughable when someone tells you "don't drive half way across the country and pay that big stud fee to breed to Super Duper Dog, I've got his brother right here". Not the same thing. Might be close but again might not even be in the ball park genetically.
The way genes line up in a breeding you might have one pup take after his sire,another favors his dam and three others all look like a carbon copy of the famous grand sire.And still one another comes out red and white in a litter of blueticks and tri colors.
The reason you may get half a litter with a perfect bite and the others with a poor bite is probably due to recessive genes combining from the sire and the dam in those poor bite pups when their gene combinations united at conception.The parents may both have perfect bites themselves but are carriers of a recessive gene that when they were mated came out in some of their pups. So even though the other pups did not show a poor bite they may still be a carrier of that recessive gene that could combine with another in some future mating.
Unless the dog's bite is so bad that it affects it's ability to eat properly I guess I feel like Wicker's Beagles;enjoy them,hunt them and trial them.
Like warddog and harechaser mentioned there are many"little" faults that you can find in most anybody's hounds but superior ability will also cover a multitude of imperfections. Don't get me wrong,I am not advocating the breeding of beagles with obvious known faults.On the other hand there are not many of us [any of us ] that are breeding for the Westminster show ring where every little curve of tail,angle of stifle or hock,length of occiput,depth of muzzle,dewlap,length of body x height at shoulder,ear to tip of nose,etc.,etc is measured ,critiqued and judged.
The best registered coon hound I ever owned Nite Champion / State Champion was a one nutter [cryptorchid ], one of the best beagles I've had [ Rabbit Champion in three hunts on three consecutive weekends with two 1'st and a 2'nd ] was born with a tail that looked like a fish hook at the end and had it bobbed off as a pup,have seen several very good hounds that have had cherry eye that needed to be nipped out. And right now I have a litter of pups and one nice big female has five toes on one of her rear feet instead of the usual four.Some might think I should cull her---NOT A CHANCE! I'm thinking she might be my pick of the litter and I'll call her Slew Foot.
As always JMHO.

[Hare Chaser]

What is your opinion when 1/2 the litter has a perfect bite and the other 1/2 has an under bite? Could the perfect bite dogs pass on the under bite that obviously came somewhere in the lineage.

Of course. If half the litter had the issue it's pretty well embedded. I don't believe I'd risk breeding any of them. The bite is an easy one to see............if you are looking for it and you can see it early........like when they are puppies. The ones that concern me more are the ones you won't discover until you have a bunch of time and money into them. Like back trackers, lack of hunt, poor nose, lack of heart, tight mouth, to much mouth, epilepsy, etc., etc. Those are the ones that don't show up until long after you bought the puppy and have much invested. Oh.........by the way, dew claws on the hind legs is considered a fault or defect as well but how many people just clip them off at 1 to 2 days old and few seem to pay any attention after that. Dew claws are pretty low on my list of faults.

There is no perfect hound. Either in ability, conformation or health. The seller is responsible for being honest and truthful. The buyer is responsible for asking as many of the right questions as they know to ask. You pick what you can and can't live with cause they all have something. Trust me, there are a whole lot of hounds out there with big names and pedigrees that have genetic faults and disorders that few want to talk about.

[mybeagles]

How about those that just keep inbreeding a line breeding them.

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

It's simple. let me explain it to you.
" We don't breed dogs with faults"

[warddog]

Right on again Shady Grove. Although I am NOT a breeder per se I have read a lot of articles on genetic and have stated numerous times that making a CROSS, any cross, even a repeat cross will NOT guarantee one the same alignment of the individual genes. There are so many possibilities when that roulette wheel starts to spin what lines up may go back generations and beyond in hidden recessive genes. IF, folks are of the believe that ALL things living on earth and in the sea came from one creator then ANYTHING can happen because they are ALL related at some point in time. The one and only way to eliminate a defect is to clone one without it but that doesn't mean it will not be carrying a recessive fault gene. I suspect when the creator made any animal it was made with every ability it needed to survive and produce it's own kind. I doubt it was ever intended to be a perfect specimen as there are NO perfect people either. IMHO all this is in the eye of the beholder...................each individual man! Perfect will NEVER happen as man hasn't the control over it as he has stepped into mother natures world of natural selection where the true best to best breedings take place. Only the strongest survive to pass on their genes from year to year in mother nature's true world. When man domesticated the dog they took them out of the hands of nature and molded them to fit what the beholder wanted. Isn't that exactly what happens today? The faults are identified by some man's registry as they were certainly not originated to be able to survive and or carry on the genes if they had them to the point of NOT getting that opportunity. Any and ALL faults are those as cited within the registries and even they do NOT enforce them as the almighty dollar gets in the way. I believe ALL the beagle breed standards have over 15" as a means of disqualification for the beagle and my question is if it is the ONLY one fault that totally DISQUALIFIES one from ANY and EVERY competition why then is it acceptable to accept money for the registry to CERTIFY that the dog meets their own breed standards? YES, that is done when they issue a REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE but yet deny their own certification when that very dog is found to NOT meet the ONLY fault that disqualifies them from competing. I suspect the reason they do so is so that they can eliminate that fault from being passed down with one of their registries titles on it. If one is NOT breeding faults and bettering the breed what happens to those dogs packing the one and only disqualifiable fault on any registries books? Not knocking over 15" beagles but merely comparing that BIGGEST disqualifying fault with ALL others as it doesn't impede the dog's ability to do what it is supposed to do either.

[simple pleasure]

ok what would you guys do my buddy in past was told dog had perfect bite get the dog and had underbite and extra baby teeth that adult never pushed out because bite off??? there are guys sellin these type dogs out there and not saying that bite off or dont know what bad bite is I guess

[CASKEY'S KENNEL]

Did the guy know he sold you a dog with a underbite ?