Need a class for oversize dogs?

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Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by kwolf » Wed May 30, 2018 8:16 pm

I think AKC needs to look at a class for over 15 inch dogs. For about the last 15 years it seems our beagles have been getting bigger , maybe its the feed or just the genetics. I think there are a lot of oversize dogs that would show good in the trials but people can't run them . Back in the 80's it was very rare for a dog to measure over 15 , now days if you run the 15 inch class the majority of the entrees are 14 3/4 to 15 1/4. A good friend of mine from Michigan called me the other day and said at a Large Pack they only had 3 big males measure in , the rest were oversize , they had to cancel that class. I myself like a big dog 15 to 15 1/2 is what I prefer. I have seen some oversize hounds that can flat drive a rabbit and hold the line and make the turns , close in the check , run like fox hounds!!! So what are some of your opinions on this ? And remember "it's not how fast they run it's how well they run fast". Ron Preston

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by Swampman » Thu May 31, 2018 12:40 am

Don’t you think it has more to do with breeding oversized hounds to oversized hounds again and again and again?
The taller the hound the less strides it needs to take during a 4 to 5 hour LPH trial.
It all has to do with getting an edge and winning at all costs, plain and simple.
Apparently your friend neglected to tell you that an AKC rep was there verifying the measurements which is why so many measured out.
Also, we’re not talking 15 1/4”, try more like 16”+ and it’s just as rampant in the 13” class.
If they came out with a 17” class, how long do you think it would be before 18”+ hounds started showing up?
The solution isn’t changing the long standing 13” and 15” breed standards, it’s breeding within the standard and trialing within the rules.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by brewer69kennels » Thu May 31, 2018 5:58 am

Swampman . you hit the nail on the head, the breed standards exist for a reason,

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by warddog » Thu May 31, 2018 7:32 am

brewer69kennels wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:58 am
Swampman . you hit the nail on the head, the breed standards exist for a reason,

I also agree BUT even to a more stringent side. If the breed standard has a limit of 15" tall then I think they should NOT register anything over their limit that they have set as "the standard". if it does not meet the standard they set for a beagle then it should not be recognized as such by their registry. Why make a law, rule or a regulation and then allow it to be violated as that then makes the entire registry suspect of failing to maintain their own standards. Looks like if an AKC rep was there and only a few measured in then alot of them should have had their AKC registry cancelled as they did NOT meet the AKC standard for a beagle.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by PAB » Thu May 31, 2018 11:57 am

Swampman hit the nail right on the head. Why would you change the AKC size limits to conform with oversize dogs, instead of breeding dogs to remain within the size limits that have been good for over 100 years? My own view on the size thing is that speed is what is desired now days, and speed seems to be all that matters. The bigger the dog, the more speed is possible. The last LPH trials i attended there were no long steady runs, what happened to line control close check work?

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by S.R.Patch » Thu May 31, 2018 1:21 pm

It is easier to breed well proportioned hounds of larger size, than it is to breed the little ones with correct conformation. The upper size limit was set to establish a size hound that would not over match the prey, so that good sport could be derived. In England, the standard is 16", they run hare but also in large numbered groups of hounds, always a pack,... soloing or a couple is unheard of.
Above 16", and you are into Harrier territory which may run hare or fox for sport.
The standard is a guideline that breeders follow to a greater or lesser extent to keep beagles looking like beagles and useful for their intended purpose. If you want your hound eligible for consideration in AKC show or field trial events, then these limits and standards must be met by your entry.
Now if you want hounds eliminated from eligibility of registry for size, then to be fair, AKC would have to extend the registration time limit to somewhere around 18 months old, as some hounds don't reach full growth until then. I've always been in favor of this as it would save the cost of registering many worthless hounds for disqualification in size or ability. But it won't happen cause AKC would loose to much money on culled hounds not getting registered.
AKC is a business, they don't want to intrude and tell you how to run a rabbit, they want to sell you record papers and insurance.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by kwolf » Thu May 31, 2018 3:06 pm

Yes my friend from Michigan did say the AKC reps had been to a lot of the large pack trials. I do not think it is right for a 16 inch dog to be running in the 15 inch class , I'm thinking they need to open a larger class to keep the people from complaining and still let the dogs compete with hounds their own size. AKC does'nt have a problem collecting the money to regester these hounds , and now the reps should see how much money they are loosing on entrees at the trials. I get it some people don't like change but sometimes there is a need for some change. If you are one of those people complaining about running against the larger hounds I would think this would make you happy.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by Beagle Huntsman » Thu May 31, 2018 4:49 pm

If you read Hounds and Hunting magazine, you will notice the UBGF hounds being advertised at stud are predominantly small hounds these days (under 13). I hear (and videos seem to confirm) that speed has increased in UBGF, and I have to wonder if going smaller is an attempt to control speed? Is going bigger in hare and Midwest likewise an attempt to increase speed? Maybe the increase or decrease in size has happened gradually in response to what is winning, and therefore getting bred from?

I personally like the Standard as it is. If you add another class, you may as well change the Standard too. Eventually our beagles will get confused with harriers...

I have a four week old male puppy who is as nice at that age (conformation) as anything I have bred. But unfortunately he is huge! If he hunts like his parents, I won’t get too upset about his size.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by Swampman » Thu May 31, 2018 5:41 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to oversized hounds for hunting, just opposed to entering them in trials.
I have an oversized male that is a great hunting hound and would probably do well in trials.
I've had encouragement from others to enter him in trials but I will not due to his size.

With that said, I prefer to stay within the standard of 15" and breed for that, but sometimes the males do go over.
For the hounds that are tweeners, by all means enter the hound, just don't get upset with the judges when the hound measures out.

As for judges that allow the oversize hounds in, this is just another form of cheating.
If a judge is willing to cheat at the stand, what's going to stop them from cheating in the field?

Starting in June, all previous AKC official measurements are null and void.
I'm not a fan of the AKC due to previous false records allowance but even they know this is a problem and maybe will enforce it more closely going forward.
Last edited by Swampman on Thu May 31, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by BMBeagles » Thu May 31, 2018 5:48 pm

I think akc is doing the right thing . They may lose entries or they might gain a bunch ! Could be a real benifit to the breed at this point.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by main event`s beagles » Thu May 31, 2018 6:51 pm

they also need a class for all the dogs born the first week of july lol :D

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by Hare Chaser » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:02 pm

Here's a couple of Swampman's culls he sent into the Norteast a couple years ago running a hare last Sat. morning. Gator was to big and Belle was to small! Gator is 18" at the shoulder and Belle 13-1/2".

As has been mentioned AKC doesn't mind taking people's money for registering oversized dogs nor the litters that may be produced from them. They could with hold permanent registration until a dog has fully matured to be sure it was within the breed standard. That will never happen though. They'd be leaving money on the table!

Trials have their place and the rules should be respected.

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by mybeagles » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:50 am

I would like to see more personal integrity when it comes to beagling. When you know the judges won't do their job (lack of integrity), and you enter your over size dog you demonstrate your lack of integrity.

As stated indirectly earlier, several will change the puppies date of birth to make them long derbies (lack of integrity).

Now that DNA tests are required by dogs bred multiple times its exposing guys that swap papers on dogs (lack of integrity).

I love good competition as much as anyone and tend to be over competitive at times but can't see any reason to cheat just because others are doing it. You can blame AKC, you can blame the judges, you can blame fellow competitors. Many of you need to look in the mirror.
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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by Bowguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:27 am

Swampman is dead on!! The breeds have standards, we need to shoot for everything when breeding.
If you wanna run oversize, God bless you. If you want to trial them you’re out of luck AKC.
Not following EVERY rule is cheating as already said and I’ll add there are no likes in the rule book. We don’t get to pick what we like. We gotta conform

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Re: Need a class for oversize dogs?

Post by John Way » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:53 pm

Spoke with an AKC rep this past wknd at a federation championship trial. They are taking this measurment problem very seriously. Its been a long time coming. He was present to observe all measuring , pre and winners packs. We would have never needed to have our official measurment cards recinded or need to be hovered over by an AKC rep , had judges and measuring committes just done their job correctly. Sure there is gonna be a bit of variation , but enough hounds , especially in the LP circuit are just flat out to big for their class every day all day. One of the comments I heard was “ Just look at the pics of hounds posed on the winners bench. One can clearly see the noticable oversized hounds” . I haven’t LP trialed in many years , but even 20 yrs ago they just pushed them through. Was done by a measuring committee, who would just state “ Good” , and many times my hound wasn’t settled or the bar wasn’t even locked. I’m really not sure if its still done this way ? I’m happy AKC has initiated this correction. If they see this through , we should start observing classes of hounds that fall within the guidelines. Hounds need to conform to the standard.................

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