Gone With the Wind

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Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:24 pm

likeemfast wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:16 pm
Bowguy wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am
I’m also not defending blackcteek.
Nobody can defend Back creek hounds, not even the owners. That’s why they get their shorts in a bunch when you talk about them.
Well there’s def some fans of em and you gave me a laugh.

Newt
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Newt » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Hare Chaser wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:49 pm
A good medium to upper medium speed dog that can run the line with minimal losses while staying focused will wear out a lot of "fast" dogs. Often from the middle of the pack. That being said if you've ever owned one that can run the line with speed and accuracy with minimal losses you will never forget it and will always be hoping you're blessed with another some day. You'll also find it is extremely difficult to make up a pack of that kind.

It took awhile but I have come to the realization that a smooth running medium to upper medium speed dog can make me very happy!
I totally agree. If a dog can run the line, is not over competitive, and stops when the scent stops, I don't care about the speed.

Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:33 pm

Newt wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:01 pm
Hare Chaser wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:49 pm
A good medium to upper medium speed dog that can run the line with minimal losses while staying focused will wear out a lot of "fast" dogs. Often from the middle of the pack. That being said if you've ever owned one that can run the line with speed and accuracy with minimal losses you will never forget it and will always be hoping you're blessed with another some day. You'll also find it is extremely difficult to make up a pack of that kind.

It took awhile but I have come to the realization that a smooth running medium to upper medium speed dog can make me very happy!
I totally agree. If a dog can run the line, is not over competitive, and stops when the scent stops, I don't care about the speed.
This is really obvious. The faster the better but only as fast as the nose.
Why don’t guys start a thread so we don’t keep stepping on this one showing how perfectly their fast dogs run.
We know you’ll show your best but let’s see how they don’t over run? Maybe you’ll convert someone. I mean if a dog ran perfect and fast I’d personally pay good money for em.
It’s just not happening imo
Show some running on paths, dirt roads, slate pits in the dry summer air as well. Love to see this. I’d bet even the fast dog guys would, so show us.

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S.R.Patch
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by S.R.Patch » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:34 pm

When I was young I had those med. speed hounds, we called them farm dogs, they was great for ditch bank. growed up hog and equipment lots, stayed with the track and dig'em out of the hole type. Then one day a new neighbor moved in, called his kennel Blackfoot kennels, took me to run the coal mines with a new friend named Billy Bredemier. Well, my dogs couldn't hang with them dogs. They did what mine did only faster and they determined to catch that rabbit and I saw it first handed many times. Well, I got me some of that Cody's Mikie/Pop Fannie, an some of that Apachie/ Fitzgerald Yipper blood and ran the coal mines ever since. It seemed like a different type rabbit and different dogs did best on those grounds. I couldn't never breed as good as I got from those hounds, so I found a guy up at Andrews Ind. that had the patch dog I'd read about for so long and I found they bred true to what they were in the pups, so I stuck with them I guess.
Some folks thrive on controversy, and not everybody takes sugar or cream in their coffee, find your cup of tea and be happy... :dance:

Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:58 am

S.R.Patch wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:34 pm
When I was young I had those med. speed hounds, we called them farm dogs, they was great for ditch bank. growed up hog and equipment lots, stayed with the track and dig'em out of the hole type. Then one day a new neighbor moved in, called his kennel Blackfoot kennels, took me to run the coal mines with a new friend named Billy Bredemier. Well, my dogs couldn't hang with them dogs. They did what mine did only faster and they determined to catch that rabbit and I saw it first handed many times. Well, I got me some of that Cody's Mikie/Pop Fannie, an some of that Apachie/ Fitzgerald Yipper blood and ran the coal mines ever since. It seemed like a different type rabbit and different dogs did best on those grounds. I couldn't never breed as good as I got from those hounds, so I found a guy up at Andrews Ind. that had the patch dog I'd read about for so long and I found they bred true to what they were in the pups, so I stuck with them I guess.
Some folks thrive on controversy, and not everybody takes sugar or cream in their coffee, find your cup of tea and be happy... :dance:
This post hits the nail on the head. The best dogs for the game and conditions should be used.

Newt
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Newt » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:14 am

Patch you nailed it. Different terrain/game takes different style hounds.

warddog
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by warddog » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:40 am

I also remember those ole farm dogs as that is all we ever had when I was a kid. We had dogs that were locally bred and raised here in this area and we never traveled to buy or bred dogs back then. Was barely able to care for a dog or two let alone afford driving long distances to do so. A lot of farmers hunted and normally had a dog or two out of ole jack and Jill running around the farm hills for sale. Back then we hunted A LOT of ole strip mine spoil banks that was so think and woolly one had to get up on top of one to even see into the ticket below. We never saw a fast dog even if one was bred to be that way as they just couldn't get out of the thick to even stretch out unless the rabbit went to a farm field bordering the ole spoil banks which almost never happened. Most of those have been reclaimed now BUT we still have a few around where I live but about like everything else they are posted. We also have some open mine country to the south as well where dogs can stretch it out once they get out of the thick sericia grass.

likeemfast
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by likeemfast » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:52 am

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Last edited by likeemfast on Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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likeemfast
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by likeemfast » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:55 am

[quote=Bowguy post_id
Bowguy wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:46 am

Well there’s def some fans of em and you gave me a laugh.
Bow guy
That was the intention.

Patch, good to see your still kickin. Always remember when you point a finger at someone there’s 3 pointing back atcha.

Lucky for me I grew up in Minersville PA in Schuylkill County, and as u can imagine, yeppir it’s Coal Country. Still run the stripping banks and old coal fields. If they can run em there they can run em anywhere.
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S.R.Patch
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by S.R.Patch » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:33 pm

I guess I left my post open ended, but you don't get to interpret it and turn it into what suits your mind.
I don't care what people do with their hounds and breeding because i have no control over what they do. All I can do is offer my thinking and let the chips fall.
The beagle is ONE BREED, if I see your hounds can do what mine do only better, I should ask myself, "why". There is nothing wrong with a man following his convictions and ideas of what a hound should do but, I wrote a long time ago, "the object of a houndsman is to improve the breed as a whole", not to create subsets of the same hound. I like to think a well rounded hound with the gifts and intelligence would fit in and show a contribution when entered in with any pack of his breeding. This thinking comes from getting out of your own back yard and testing the ability and limits of what you've created an convinced yourself is "ALL THAT". Satisfaction is the start of regression, we all should see want in our hounds, there's a lot in the "total hound" to want for.
Sixteen yr ago when i joined this board there was some real talent and dedication to the breed on board. Fast starts and cult behavior has brought us to this point but as always, they soon fade and move on to another breed or drop out once the discussion participation dries up. What I've seen is, they want to kill or ban any objectivity that goes against their lack of knowledge. After a while, it gets boring stroking their own egos,... the learning and open discussion provoking thought died in the choking power of control, kinda like watching a walkie-talkie run a rabbit, it's game but not sport.
Good luck with resuscitating the patient.

PS...Bruce, I don't know what your finger pointing comment means. Can you clarify?

Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:13 pm

Patch what does better mean in your mind? Is it running a little bit of the track, kinda hit n miss? It’s obviously not running the line, least not what I’d call running a line.
Here’s the issue, I’d never run dogs that don’t run a line nor account for their game.
You might not run dogs as smooth or what you personally might think as slow.
Which one is actually better? This might be in the eye of the beholder unless we’re talking AKc field trials. There’s a set of rules. The rules are like a recipe book.
Every rule must be taken to heart not just the ones we like.
I often hear accomplishment over style being touted by fast hound type guys.
If you follow every AKC rule and mix it all up we consider each rule. Over running a line just a wee bit say barking. Ok so pulling a pack, improper use of voice, most likely inaccuracy I’m trailing, overcompetiveness oftentimes, as it keeps going forward in its effort to regain the line we have leaving a check.
Hounds must work a check industriously close to point of loss than extend their search area.
Third dog back kept motoring through making turns w the rabbit, the fast dog hooked around or skirted to get the front. hmmm more faults according to AKC.
Now I could go on all day but the rules if taken the way they’re written are impossible to screw up. If we’re going by these rules fast dogs are shining the grass at the truck.
Do they have their place? Absolutely. Are they great hounds to some guys? Absolutely. Do they have great days, the answer again is yes.
I’ve put wins on dogs I wouldn’t personally feed. They were the best dog that particular day though. No one should be so kennel blind they can’t see that and I believe that’s the problem.
I’m sure everyone here has dogs that suit them. The bred/bought em, they feed em. It’s their right but just because you see it different you (not you personally Patch) can’t be so close minded you wanna bash someone else type.

Newt
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Newt » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Bowguy, I don't know your age, but Patch, Daddy Rabbit and I remember the "Traditional Brace Trials". The dogs became so slow that hunters refused to buy AKC registered beagles. Those Trials were judged by the same rule books. Then a group of beaglers rebelled and started "Gundog Trials".
Gundog Trials grew like a wild fire. Many of the Brace Trialers switched to Gundog Trials. Then they appealed to AKC for recognition/sanctions. The rule book was amended to accommodate the speedier gundogs. Then each year the hounds got slower. AKC stepped in and urged clubs to encourage giving merit to faster hounds, make an attempt to award dogs that appear to be hunting, and demerit dogs that would not hunt.
So when you mention that you want hounds that adhere to AKC rules it doesn't mean much to me.
It depends on who is interpreting the rules.
The game hasn't changed so why does the interpretation of the rules change.

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S.R.Patch
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by S.R.Patch » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:11 pm

No, I'm not here to bash hounds. And that rule book you speak of, is a guideline to be used with experience and common sense. Randall once said, accuracy of trailing must come first, then the faster it can be done, the better.
I thought I had pretty good dogs till I ran the coalmines against hounds with real drive, then I thought I had pretty good dogs until I ran hare every day, all day for a week. Some of these patch dogs after 3 days began to show weary, they ran but the hunt tapered way back.
A true statement, "your hounds will only be as good as what's expected of them". You should ask them to show it often... ;)

Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:31 pm

S.R.Patch wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:11 pm
No, I'm not here to bash hounds. And that rule book you speak of, is a guideline to be used with experience and common sense. Randall once said, accuracy of trailing must come first, then the faster it can be done, the better.
I thought I had pretty good dogs till I ran the coalmines against hounds with real drive, then I thought I had pretty good dogs until I ran hare every day, all day for a week. Some of these patch dogs after 3 days began to show weary, they ran but the hunt tapered way back.
A true statement, "your hounds will only be as good as what's expected of them". You should ask them to show it often... ;)
Didn’t say you were here to bash. Hope that was clear and I agree w all you say except the hare thing. I’ve got no personal experience running em. I’ve judged them 3 times I think, but no real expertise here.
That being said, no question if I lived in hare country I’d certainly have a couple hell raisin hare specialists so don’t misunderstand where I stand either.
I’ve got a chance to go to two dif states to chase em this or any year. Sounds like fun but without my own dog in there it wouldn’t be same so we’ll see.

Bowguy
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:54 pm

Newt wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:08 pm
Bowguy, I don't know your age, but Patch, Daddy Rabbit and I remember the "Traditional Brace Trials". The dogs became so slow that hunters refused to buy AKC registered beagles. Those Trials were judged by the same rule books. Then a group of beaglers rebelled and started "Gundog Trials".
Gundog Trials grew like a wild fire. Many of the Brace Trialers switched to Gundog Trials. Then they appealed to AKC for recognition/sanctions. The rule book was amended to accommodate the speedier gundogs. Then each year the hounds got slower. AKC stepped in and urged clubs to encourage giving merit to faster hounds, make an attempt to award dogs that appear to be hunting, and demerit dogs that would not hunt.
So when you mention that you want hounds that adhere to AKC rules it doesn't mean much to me.
It depends on who is interpreting the rules.
The game hasn't changed so why does the interpretation of the rules change.
Newt I’ll be 52 next week. I stated as a kid pleasure running so no trials. As a young man I started in ARHA. Was a judge and master of hounds for two clubs. I kinda liked that format except the pack winner coming back thing. Hated that. Buncha pukes in one cast and great ones in another. A really good dog’d place worse than a puke maybe. I went AKC.
I myself remember brace trials. In fact my club just within 2 years stopped em.
Now you’re misunderstanding what I said so let me clarify. If you’re in my house, you follow my rules right? Same I’m sure in yours.
The field trials under AKC rules belong to the AKC not me nor you, we gotta follow them imo. Don’t try distorting them so another dog fits.
There is no interpretation and that is exactly the problem.
Look straight up. A rabbit track is maybe 3” wide. I witnessed a recent trial and have many before where the dogs were 20 yards wide.
Do we need to interpret that’s inaccurate? Do we need to interpret the dogs are over competitive?
Do we need to interpret industriously close at a check means if your wife dropped her earring and started across the street looking for it, well you best not have kids w her. She’s not real smart! I’m by no means beating up on your wife.
The rules SHOULD NOT change.
Now I personally do like an AKC rulebook type dog. Doesn’t mean anything nor should it to you. If you want a wind splitter that runs half a line and finds a dif rabbit continually that’s ok and shouldn’t matter to me.
Remember I challenged you guys to show me some video. How come no one bit?????
Remember or don’t and reread through the thread. Few guys were bashing slower type hounds uncontested. I’m only showing another side. Not trying to change or convince anyone. Feed what you like and I’ll feed what I like.
If I saw ya drive by w a dog box in the truckbed full of dogs I’d smile not question you. We’re all brothers in a sense

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