Gone With the Wind

A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)

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Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 am

As far as the “lapping” thing goes where/how can you prove that??
Idk there’s a guy in my club that times everything. Checks, circles, run time. etc. His records show slower dogs circle faster so who is actually faster now????
I know there’s many variables but that’s his findings over a long time. He now runs a slower dog. Guess he likes em to circle fast, not fast dogs that circle slow!! Forgive me for the last sentence I was just having fun cracking myself up.
Listen we’re all brothers. Don’t forget that

warddog
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:58 pm
Location: Jasonville, Indiana

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by warddog » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:15 am

There is actually NO science involved in all this hound dog running style because it is ALL OPINION. What I consider fast, slow, air, ground scent etc is a matter of my opinion as I have never in ALL my years of following hounds smelled a single thing this ole dogs do. I've seen coon hounds stick their nose in the air and open up and then tree a coon in a woods patch in the middle of an open filed without opening their mouth again until getting treed. I've also seen them boo-hoo around with their nose stuck to the ground but then all of a sudden take out red hot. I've seen a pack of 4 beagles running like it is red hot and then shut up like the scent was totally gone with a couple reaching out in a circle away from the loss, and a couple walking the track backwards only to have one or both of them take it after they all run past that point several yards and they were NOT running it fast in my opinion as they were far enough behind for the ole cottontail to perform his tricks. I've seen cottontail cross a creek with water and dried up on a log across it and a pack of beagles staying on his track with some actually walking the log smelling it and some crossing the dried creek under the log without missing a breath barking. I've also watched cottontails swim a strip pit lake way ahead of the dogs and some swim it exactly where the rabbit went in and came out to0nging all the way. They came out on the other side and continued like they had never been in the water. How they did that, I have no idea but I often wondered if they smelled that scent on the water or in the air that well why did they ever break down when mon dry ground? I also wonder why that coon dog struck that scent in the air and didn't do that very often and many times would strike a track and not put a legitimate end to it. ( where I saw the game) I can see/hear them and many times wished I could tell what they were smelling so I would know rather than make an opinion of what they were doing. I have many, many times just shook my head at what I have seen and heard both good and bad and merely rendered my opinion to those I was hunting with on what transpired. I highly doubt I would be any different when running behind them either as I have stood on top of many tall shale piles and watched beagles running a cottontail all around it 360 degrees when I could see the rabbit as well as what the dogs were doing behind it and just shake my head at the differences among them. I can NOT speak to hare running as that is NOT something I have ever done although I have hunted with a lot of those beagles that were bred and ran a lot on hare with ours that were solely ran on cottontail.

Shady Grove Beagles
Posts: 1407
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:56 pm
Location: east,Tn..

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Shady Grove Beagles » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:34 pm

Bowguy
I don't have any videos of my dogs running a rabbit.I don't have a phone/computer that I carry around with me in my pocket.I have a $13.00 flip phone I got at Wal-Mart and that's what it is-a phone.I usually only turn it on when I want to call someone.
I also don't have a Garmin GPS to watch every move that the beagles make,how fast they run, where they are at any given moment,how many miles they've been,etc.
I don't have a high tech video camera for recording the dogs and I'd have no idea how to post on here or Face Book to show the world or edit it down to make my beagles appear perfect.
Nothing wrong with any of the above.I have friends that use all the technology and love it.I appreciate what it brings to the sport.
I just don't really care about all of it.Old school to the core I guess. A real dinosaur.
I wouldn't try to change your mind about beagles and how they run. Your most recent comments as to "running willy nilly,as much time off the line as on the line,hit and miss garbage, out running their nose,go looking for another rabbit when they lose one,fast dogs can't run a rabbit and trying to sell you a bill of goods about a fast dog being perfect." I'd say your mind is about as made up as it could ever be.
My dogs don't run like you describe so I guess I'll take no offense and the idea that fast dogs aren't perfect-- well that ain't news but what's you're point?
My good friend Jonah Staten has a good measuring stick he uses when appraising a hound. Could you feed your family with that hound if you had to? My answer is YES these hounds of mine could feed my family with game taken with them.
If you chose to assess your hounds according to the A.K.C. trialing rule book that's fine. I've been to too many trials where the judges are breaking down the performance akin to how the Olympic judges judge the gymnastics or figure skating competitions.
" A nice landing folks but his left foot was not aligned with his right foot. A nice triple salcow but his head was a little turned down--that will cost him points.Technically he was solid but he just didn't have that style that will appeal to these judges tonight".
You might think I'm exaggerating but I've seen A.K.C. trials where judges were doing the exact same thing. " oh look at how he's weaving the line we need to pick him up as he's 5 feet off the line.Oh look at how he left the check area,he's 20 feet from the point of loss [ even though no dog has been able to lift the scent in several minutes] he's needs to be picked up as he's reaching.And how about lack of hunt where the judges and gallery are all beating the brush with their tally-ho sticks to find the rabbit for these hunting dogs?"
Roy Kennedy of Briarpatch Kennels in Vermont for many years bred and raised some of the most successful Large Pack on Hare Beagles in the North east and had a waiting list of those that wanted pups from him whenever he raised any .Roy most often would keep and start the entire litter and run them until they were 10-12 months of age before letting any of them go.
I often asked Roy why he sold this one or that one and he would say "they were just a little too trialish for me. He liked a hound right on the edge and I guess I do too.
Different strokes for different folks.
Home of a true hunting beagle that run to catch

Aubrey Holcombe
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:54 am
Location: Royston, Georgia
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Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Aubrey Holcombe » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:20 pm

Bingo Mr. Shady !! Mighty well written Post, I agree with what you had to say, and appreciate your Comments

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>> :check: .
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:14 pm

Lol the first sentence says it all. No video cause they haven’t done so. Funny

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:38 pm

Shady what you aren’t getting I don’t think is we all have different tastes. We all have dif reasons for running or types of running we do.
If 5’ off the line is acceptable to you God bless you and the hounds.
If you are at a trial whatever the format you’d have to follow those rules and in some formats 5’ can get you cut and back at the truck. Bear in mind there’s dif formats. Some may for sure suit you.
If you’re in one that doesn’t, complaining about it doesn’t help. Just move to the right format or don’t trial if that’s what you don’t like.
It’s ok I’m not by any means saying you’re Hounds are invaluable to you. So don’t misunderstand. I speak like a man, pretty blunt.
Some is funning so understand that too.
Remember how this started. YOU guys were making fun of slower hounds. Not the other way around.
Respect the other mans opinion and hounds. Or expect someone to comment. There’s a whole lot of guys think the “fast hound” guys know nothing about hounds, I didn’t say I’m one of em and I’m not. I just think we view it all different.
Now should we discuss politics and the lousy liberals??? Lol sorry boys please don’t

Hare Chaser
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Hare Chaser » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:34 pm

OK, here comes my 2 cents. I have come to appreciate both camps in this discussion. 1st off, kudos to anyone who knows what they want in a hound and has the discipline to stick to their scruples in keeping what pleases them. Don't care what format your running if you trial regularly with the desire to place the rules of the format you run most will play a large part in dictating what you run for dogs. Why wouldn't it unless of course you just like to go and really don't care if you place or not. One of the finest examples of a man that knows what he wants and consistently has dogs that work together in relentless pursuit of their game I'd say is Mark Cardery from West Virginia. Not my style of dog at all but I admire the man for what he's accomplished and he keeps what he likes with no excuses. Pretty sure he wouldn't like mine. Bow guy, pretty sure you wouldn't like mine either.

As for Shady Grove, we've walked many a mile together behind coon hounds and hare hounds (now mostly cotton tail for him!) and I can truthfully tell you that he doesn't lie and ALWAYS will come to hunt with dogs that will put in a respectable performance be it cottontail or hare. Your dogs will be tested! They may not be bested but they will be tested!

Now what I'm about to say you will likely not put much stock in cause as far as you're concerned I'm probably just one of those guys that peruse these forums and talks a good game but rarely gets off the couch. That's OK! So here goes, if you have ever owned a truly fast and accurate line running dog that can run with minimal checks you would forever wish you could own another! I owned a mother and son duo that fit this bill. Briarpatch Skeeter and Briarpatch Black Magic brought me more hours of true joy running hare than any 2 dogs I've ever owned in over 41 consecutive years of having hounds. I've never been able to find 2 more like them and likely never will. Saw Magic catch one in his life time and pulled both he and his mother off many before they did catch them. After an hour or more of relentless pressure on a hare (and a cottontail I would imagine) the circles get smaller and smaller. The scent gets stronger as the game tires and the hounds close the gap.

Personally I've got more respect for the game than to let them get caught by my hounds if I can pull them off before it happens. Can't run a dead one again and hare aren't thick as fleas where I live and hunt most of the time.

It doesn't take fast dogs to catch their game but the slow Wilkie talkie type won' ever catch a hare and my guess cottontail either. Medium to fast dogs that can run with minimal checks giving relentless pressure will ventually catch their game on the RIGHT day. I'd have a great deal of trouble believing it happens day in and day out for any mans hounds.

P.S. I'm one of those guys that has a video camera and Shady Grove will be up here in VT to run hare in 4 weeks so I can post up some links for ya to critique our hounds of you like🙃! I won't edit it either!

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:14 am

That was a good post hare chaser but I wanna say 2 things, one, hare are not cottontail. Forgive me but they run easier circles. In fact many call them stupid loops. A faster hare specialist dog should run them imo. If I lived in hare country make no mistake I’d have hare specialists for hounds.
The video I asked to see was one where the super fast hounds showed they could gear down and show patience when needed. They really can’t, instead relying on leg power to run around and either find another or pick it up where it’s easier to run. I personally call these white collar dogs. They want the credit but don’t put in the work.
Also walkie talkies are I guess subjective to who you’re talking to but they’re kinda useless. The hounds even if line control gotta be going for the rabbit. There’s kinda difference there if you know what I mean.

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:47 am

To put it another way, a singer would more than likely sing better than a construction worker but the construction worker would be better building your house. Same to me w dogs.
A hare dog was bred and perfected for chasing hare. A cottontail dog for cottontail. I’m not saying they can’t cross lines. The very best attributes of each aren’t commonly possessed by one hound. Certainly not a large amount of them.

Aubrey Holcombe
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:54 am
Location: Royston, Georgia
Contact:

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Aubrey Holcombe » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:09 am

Say, Bowguy Who Strings your Bow ?

I bet you still shooting an old Recurve, like that old MAN, heck I can't think of his name right now, anyway he shoot only cedar staff. Fred Bear remember Fred?

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

warddog
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:58 pm
Location: Jasonville, Indiana

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by warddog » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:32 am

Good post harechaser and I have described Mark Carder's dogs many times after watching his videos, as rabbit hounds. Never even mentioned if they were my style or not because any dog that pursues it's quarry as they do is my style because they are a rabbit dogs that one can put meat on the table with. THE ONLY reason the dogs do what they do. I do have preferences BUT I do also know and understand that dogs are dogs and when you least expect it, EXPECT it. Cottontails around here, which by the way are NOT as plentiful as they used to be either, normally go to a place of refuge before getting caught. We have found them inside of hollow logs when the dogs have pursued them to the point that they evidently feel like they can NOT shake them and they got no other place to get away. I have seen very, very few get caught around here when running the thick stuff we normally hunt as neither can get out of it to stretch out unless they go out along a field. They normally do not do so and I believe they are coyote ran so much they know better. As for using a score card as a measuring stick, I tried that for years with coon hounds and after being a judge as well as a master of hounds came to the realization that those objectives are subjectively applied in the filed and therefore a matter of opinion rather than facts of what a dog is doing. Many in the gallery see and hear things totally different than those carrying the score card. NOT saying they are all like that but it is human nature to lean toward what one personally likes. We therefore have personal opinions of what is what rather than actual knowledge of it because we can only speculate what those dogs are doing. They are much more suited to pursue their quarry than we are or we would not need them regardless of the style they do it. Everyone uses tools to do things and some prefer one brand over another but as for me I just like a tool that gets the job done consistently without falling apart after one use or one that must be used every single day to keep it in top shape.

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:27 am

Aubrey Holcombe wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:09 am
Say, Bowguy Who Strings your Bow ?

I bet you still shooting an old Recurve, like that old MAN, heck I can't think of his name right now, anyway he shoot only cedar staff. Fred Bear remember Fred?

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
You’d lose the bet. I’m shooting a longbow w the cedar shafts. I string my own bows and make the arrows.
I’ve shot traditional since I was 3-4. I’ve also shot compounds since around mid 70.
You all’d prob shoot crossbows and call it archery!!!
Truth is Ive recently had a large brain tumor and also had my dominant eye sewed shut. I still can’t see right out it and can’t see through a peep.( I can see dogs skirt though. ) They don’t know if I will or won’t eventually lose the eye but it’s now unsewed.
I shoot straight instinctive again or believe it or not I can gap shoot because of the issues. Funny you guys been arguing w a guy w 1/2 a brain, one eye, one ear and still losing lol!!

Hare Chaser
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Hare Chaser » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:24 pm

Not sure any of us are winning or loosing Bowguy but I do hope you win that fight with the brain tumor and that your eye is returned to full function. Funny how things we often think are issues or problems pale in comparison to what really matters in life.

You'll be in my prayers for restoration of health. Dogs are dogs and we like what we like and we don't have to change each others minds. Guess I could ditto your comments about having the type of dog you need to run in the climate you live in. I do have one hare bred female all the way that would likely fit in with what you like. She's medium speed for the most part, about 13-1/2 to 14" and is a line runner that is tight in the checks. Sometimes a little to tight! Very good nose and will open early some but have not had a day here on hare that she couldn't get one around in a circle. Got some others you wouldn't feed long!😉 But since I buy the feed for 'em that doesn't really matter!

Bowguy
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Bowguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:05 pm

Thanks hare chaser I’ll be ok. And I really only am razzing about the dogs. They all have their place.
In regards to real issues I wanna say something cause someone reading this is maybe having a bad day. No matter our problems someone always wishes they had em. Someone somewhere is bouncing a bald little kid on their knee in some hospital hoping they make the weekend and they’d gladly trade with that child.
That was one thing that kept me strong, knowing I was bearing the weight and my kids didn’t have to. Thank God.
We’re all blessed remember that. It could always be worse.

Hare Chaser
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: Gone With the Wind

Post by Hare Chaser » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:32 pm

Ditto Bowguy. God often hides pearls in the midst of our trials..........we just need to dig deeper at times to find them.

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