The American Beagler Forum

What would be the correct definition of the term "Bloodline" as applied to beagles or other hunting hounds?

Hard for me to acknowledge a bloodline if one person isn’t making all the breeding decisions for 3-4 generations.

I’m not a believer that dogs are Branko dogs if they weren’t bred by Branko, they’re not Northway dogs if not bred by Paul. They obviously can be heavily influenced by a bloodline but again that’s several generations of breeding decisions made by 1 kennel.

Wier Creek is a good example....lots of guys have taken that bloodline and gone in many directions. Some are powerful fast hunting hounds with 7-8 speed. Some are ultra conservative 2-3 speed hounds with neither extreme likely resembling the initial creators intent. Yet both extremes would suggest they have original Weir creek breeding.

Reggie is not a bloodline, its 1 dog. Green Bay Shooter is not a bloodline. He was bred by Kieth Weirs of Pine Acres kennel and raised by Butch Sari of a different kennel. Not out of Green Bay dogs. Not a bloodline, just a good dog that produced some good dogs but guys will tell you they run the Green Bay Shooter Bloodline because he's 4 generations back on the bitch side.

Most guys will never have a bloodline because they don't keep enough dogs to call it such. Every cross they make is with a dog from another kennel. Nothing wrong with that, but its a constant mix of another man's breeding selections.

Blew the dust off the old Webster's Dictionary and looked up "bloodline", one line definition - "Direct line of descent, strain; pedigree"
Checked the trusty Thesaurus, "One's ancestors or their character"
So if the dogs I own all have good line control, know where the point of loss is and consistently produce the rabbit then I would say they are following in the line of character of their ancestors.

You nailed it Dave.

mybeagles wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:38 pm

Hard for me to acknowledge a bloodline if one person isn’t making all the breeding decisions for 3-4 generations.

I’m not a believer that dogs are Branko dogs if they weren’t bred by Branko, they’re not Northway dogs if not bred by Paul. They obviously can be heavily influenced by a bloodline but again that’s several generations of breeding decisions made by 1 kennel.

Wier Creek is a good example....lots of guys have taken that bloodline and gone in many directions. Some are powerful fast hunting hounds with 7-8 speed. Some are ultra conservative 2-3 speed hounds with neither extreme likely resembling the initial creators intent. Yet both extremes would suggest they have original Weir creek breeding.

Reggie is not a bloodline, its 1 dog. Green Bay Shooter is not a bloodline. He was bred by Kieth Weirs of Pine Acres kennel and raised by Butch Sari of a different kennel. Not out of Green Bay dogs. Not a bloodline, just a good dog that produced some good dogs but guys will tell you they run the Green Bay Shooter Bloodline because he's 4 generations back on the bitch side.

Most guys will never have a bloodline because they don't keep enough dogs to call it such. Every cross they make is with a dog from another kennel. Nothing wrong with that, but its a constant mix of another man's breeding selections.

THANK YOU very much

Welshman wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:01 pm

Blew the dust off the old Webster's Dictionary and looked up "bloodline", one line definition - "Direct line of descent, strain; pedigree"
Checked the trusty Thesaurus, "One's ancestors or their character"
So if the dogs I own all have good line control, know where the point of loss is and consistently produce the rabbit then I would say they are following in the line of character of their ancestors.

Looks like you chose the one that fits your own description. Webster I would say has the more accurate. If I had an English foxhound that demonstrated the qualities of your Thesauus would that be in the same bloodline of your beagles?

Do you think your English Foxhounds have the same ancestors in their pedigrees as my dogs?

Welshman wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:47 pm

Do you think your English Foxhounds have the same ancestors in their pedigrees as my dogs?

No. But if you are relying on observable traits alone could they be?

I'm of the understanding that a bloodline is defined by common ancestry as well as the demonstration of common characteristics.

I have not stated the ancestry of my dogs. But yes they do have shared ancestors in their pedigrees and display similar consistent characteristics. So your understanding is correct.

I see and hear many who use the term Bloodline in reference to whatever the latest rage of the age is in the hound dog world. Occasionally their use of the term is legitimate. Often though, there really is no bloodline per say, but merely an outstanding individual that is being widely bred and perhaps is showing signs of prepotency, yet is not the result of related ancestry sharing a likeness in both appearance and performance. I think the term bloodline is often used incorrectly and does a disservice to the dedicated breeders who have put time and effort into breeding and raising several generations of performance tested hounds that display common ancestry in the top and bottom of a 4 generation pedigree.

Yep, you did nail it Dave. Don't think it could have been said better.

I am not so sure there is one correct definition. If all the dogs in the pedigree are field trial champions couldn't one say the dog is from champion bloodlines? Then if the same dog happened to come from Branko's kennel couldn't you say the dog is from Branko's bloodlines? Or lets say some guy bought a champion dog from Branko and his buddy did too, and then those two guys bred the two and advertised the litter as Champion Branko bloodline pups bred at Bill and Bob's Kennel for sale would that be incorrect? I think you need to take into context of what is trying to be described by the term "bloodline"

Bloodline??? I don't know how to define the term although I think we all know what we mean when we use it. Or do we?
Kyle and Philip Onstott in their book "The New Art of Breeding Better Dogs" use the term "strain" and define it thus-----" A more or less numerous family of the same breed,members which are more or less interrelated one to another and which exhibit a uniformity of type which distinguishes them from members of other "strains" within the same breed".
Breeding the best to the best is a formula recognized by many houndsmen as offering the best prospects for immediate and sustained rewards.In breeding the best to the best our hopes are to preserve the best qualities of both parents in their pups.This breeding process is known as mass selection and is the foundation of most breeding programs. However,once a houndsmen has developed or purchased superior stock he may not want to chance dilution of proven reproduction to the uncertainties of outcrossing.To preserve the best of a proven hound or family,many beaglers turn to linebreeding.
The difference in line breeding and inbreeding is essentially one of degree. Line breeding is a less intensive form of inbreeding and involves the mating of animals having at least one common ancestor within the first three generations.
There are many ancestors in a pedigree besides the one that is being line bred,but, were all the ancestors,say up to three generations in back of a line bred pedigree,alike, the line bred pups would be very consistently alike.
Once a strain is established, the best traits will originally flow through a channel of certain individuals from one generation to the next,then spread to others in succeeding generations.We can see a blending of characteristics from various individuals to achieve in one hound that which perhaps was once in several.Once established, this blend continues in the descendants as long as selection is maintained.
There are some dominant sires which, in turn, pass on the ability to their sons which also, in turn, pass on their producing ability to their sons,etc. Likewise, there are dominant bitches which pass on their producing ability to their daughters,granddaughters,great-granddaughters,etc. Thus some strains are noted for their outstanding producing sires and/or females. A strain like that is a true producing "bloodline".
Successful breeders of cattle,horses,hounds or game chickens select their prospective breeding stock from the best "bloodlines" rather than from the best individuals.
I.F.C. Greenwell's Reggie was mentioned as not being a "bloodline" and I totally agree ! But, if you check out Reggie's pedigree you will have to come to the conclusion that he most definitely IS line bred from a strong family / "bloodline" / strain of beagles. His mother is the result of a half brother/ sister cross both out of Ninja who is out of Jack of all Trades who is out of Trimmer. He goes back to Jiggs which is Jack of all Trades half brother.He goes back to Camp Creek Gertrude who was out of Trimmer.Branko's Pretty Freckles is in his pedigree four times.He was bred to be what he was--- a World Champion and an International Field Champion. Like him or not.No excuses.
Just curious as to how Paul Kormorny and Northway get mentioned in a discussion on "bloodlines". Look at Paul's ads for pups / dogs over the last ten years or so.He's got dogs advertised from Ninja and Shaker "bloodlines",Farrier's Wrangler "bloodlines",Billyjack was out of Branko blood,pups out of a couple of Awful Bawlin males,Forest Pond Slick stuff,Ernie Weir's breeding and a couple dogs for sale out of Steve Aman's breeding [Branko],a pup out of Briar Patch breeding and one out of Country Runner. I can't call all those line a strain.No continuity.
Also curious where you see Weir Creek hounds with 7-8 speed.Ones here in Tn. don't have that kind of foot and I never saw anyone with that breeding in northern New England when I lived up there.
I agree that most guys will never have a bloodline because they don't keep enough dogs to call it such. Branko is the only one I can think of in the beagling world.
When i had registered Bluetick coon hounds I knew of Dave Dean and his Northern Blue Kennel and his Hammer dogs and Elbert Vaughn was known as Mr. Bluetick. Those fellows had created their own" bloodlines" and had their own family of hounds and had for 40-50 years. You could tell a Vaughn hound or a Hammer dog just by looking. Same as I can with the Branko dogs. They are a recognizable strain/ family of hounds.
As always JMHO.

I just love to read anything that is written, by this old Fart, we call Shady Grove !!

I know anyone that reads this and jumps, to the conclusion what does this Ga.Red Neck, mean by calling Mr.S.G. an Old fart?

Well, you see I have lots more Seniority, than the fellow that has forgotten more about, a true Gun Dog than anyone I ever had the pleasure to read his Writings. I read many thing he has to say, and most the time he just takes the words right out my mouth ! he is 100% correct about this write up on line breeding and Inbreeding.

I'll set back and keep reading, what you all have to say now.

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>

Aubrey Holcombe wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:40 am

I just love to read anything that is written, by this old Fart, we call Shady Grove !!

I know anyone that reads this and jumps, to the conclusion what does this Ga.Red Neck, mean by calling Mr.S.G. an Old fart?

Well, you see I have lots more Seniority, than the fellow that has forgotten more about, a true Gun Dog than anyone I ever had the pleasure to read his Writings. I read many thing he has to say, and most the time he just takes the words right out my mouth ! he is 100% correct about this write up on line breeding and Inbreeding.

I'll set back and keep reading, what you all have to say now.

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>

I totally agree with Daddy Rabbit as Shady Grove nailed it! AND as I have stated many, many times before there are folks that when they talk people STOP and listen. These two fellas are E.F. HUTTONS to my ears, PERIOD!