Just Gun Hunters-Unknown dogs

[MasonsBeagles]

Ok everyone who knows a gun hunter that has a hidden gem of a dog that is not Field Trialed and may not be known?

I stumbled across a Pacesetter male a few months ago that is bred super good but his owner does not field trial. I am going to go watch him run in the near future to see for myself. Some houndsmen I know have known the dog and said he is for real.

Its easy to only see the dogs that are being promoted, I usually look at trial records as a start for researching a good dog but Ive always said probably the best rabbit dog with ability/breeding is sitting on a dog house or chain behind a gun hunter only house.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Used to be lots of rabbit gun hunters, but not many now, at least not in my area. Without field trials, I don’t think there would be many beaglers. People who see me out with my hounds will often stop to talk. Almost every old fellow says something like “I used to have beagles years ago. I had a good pair of bench-legged beagles”.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I have field trialed in the past but do not consider my self a field trialer. I've entered exactly three trials in the past ten years.
I would say around here that beagle gun hunters far out number field trialers.On the W.M.A. where I run a lot there are two guys that are hard core U.B.G.F. trialers but none of the other beaglers I encounter there trial.
Twenty five years ago when I first moved to Tn. and started going to Little Pack trials it was not unusual for there to be 50+ open dogs entered and I'd end up judging 4-5 casts myself. These days I see results from a bunch of LP hunts with an open entry of ten dogs.It's so much easier now to champion out a dog in that format that you'll see more champions entered than opens.
Last year I raised a litter of ten pups. The only one of them that will possibly be trialed will be the stud owner's.All others went to strictly gun hunters.
In the past 25 years I've raised 14 litters of beagle pups and would say that 95% of those pups went to gun hunters.
Probably the reason for that is because I'm not part of any field trialing "inner circle",not a "regular" at field events and not a promoter.
Guys that are really into field trialing tend to buy their pups from guys they know from trialing and from the dogs that have success at those trials they are attending.
Of the litters I've bred the studs were dogs that most folks had no idea who they were.I used them because i breed for traits - not trends.
As always J.M.H.O.

[S.R.Patch]

Bench leg was acceptable only because they wanted a hound to be slow and accurate. A straight leg with good shoulder might encourage the hound to move quick and freely, ie "run to much rabbit". Hours or days ran, the benched leg hound would suffer the effect and not become more proficient, but go slower, or require being laid up for rest, it was the yoke on the goat.
On the other end,I remember a couple of old bird hunting friends who told me field trials were the ruin of the bird hunter on foot. jmho

[Rabbithoundjb]

Shady grove, Dana I have been to trials even entered a couple just not for me. I have purchased pups from hunters and trailers. I'll stick with the hunters pups they seem to just suit me better. The 2 pups I purchased from you are above average dogs IMO!. Dan was nice right from the start and has only gotten better. Took a little more time for Diva but she is killing it now. Dan was 3 in March and Diva was 1 in March. Broke easy off of trash, clean with their mouth, really good hunt, run to catch. My kinda dogs, Thanks for selling them to me. James

[Shady Grove Beagles]

James
You don't know how much I appreciate a beagler / rabbit hunter like yourself getting a pup from me and giving it all the opportunity to be all it can be.
I've found over the years it's all about getting well bred pups in the right hands. Guys that are real houndsmen / hunters.Guys like you,Daddy Rabbit,Kenny Gray down in south Georgia,Jordan and Tim Nugent in Virginia,Chris Browning in W. Virginia,Josh Stofer, the Ferrantis in New Hampshire,Ed Stutz,Dan Lea and Blake Grosch. Do I think all of my breedings will result in super stars? No way ! But I can honestly say that they produce a rabbit dog.
A lot of guys may take exception to this statement but over many years I've seen it happen a lot. Hounds with plenty of potential get "wasted,spoiled and even ruined" by their owners.
Had a good friend that just had to have a pair of pups direct from Branko.Problem was he already had a dozen hounds .He paid a lot of money for them and then proceeded to either let them sit in the pen or just turned them out to run on their own where they became deer runners. It wasn't until he sold them to a fellow that spent enough time and effort to straighten them out that they went on to become a rabbit champion and a grand rabbit champion.
Two other friends bought pups from Branko.Paid big money for pups and shipping.One was making a super young dog until her owner started jump shooting rabbits at the end of her nose and made her gun shy and then kicked her around when she'd quit after he'd shoot.
The other guy was sure he wanted a small 13" male -- until he got him then decided he wanted a big male and sold a nice young hound for less than he payed for him without even starting him ??????
I sold two male pups that are litter mates to rabbithoundjb's Dan dog three years ago to a couple of young guys who's dad's I had hunted with years back.They are both gung ho,fired up Little Pack trialers and I mean they've got it bad.
I ran / hunted with both those males when they were 10-11 months old and thought they were looking real good for their age.The boys liked them and were bragging on them.
Next thing I know both dogs had been sold [at about 15-16 months old ] with one going to Va. and one to Pa. Why ? They didn't think they were "competition" hounds.
I got hold of the Nugents in Va. who bought one and they said they were tickled to have him and "he won't be going anywhere".They are "just gun hunters".
The one in Pa. was entered in field trials a month after the guy got him and in three weeks took three 1'st and a 2'nd making him a U.K.C. Hunting Beagle Champion. Then the original owner drove from Tn. to Pa. to buy him back for more than he sold him for.Once he got him home it took him only several trials for him to champion out in Little Pack with a couple of 1'st place wins. Not a "competition dog" ???
A local guy here has bought three pups from me over the past eight years. All started easy and were looking good at a young age.I ran / hunted with them multiple times. All three of those dogs were dead before they were a 1 1/2 years old. Due to neglect,carelessness and stupidity.
He wanted one out of last year's litter. I told him he'd never get another pup from me -- last I've heard from him.
There are a lot of unknown dogs owned by "just gun hunters" that make very nice hunting companions that you've never heard of.
The bird hunter that pursues grouse and woodcock in the dense covers of Maine and Wisconsin is not interested in the high flying ,judged from horseback field trial Pointer in Texas.
Look for hounds with ability that suit you from someone you can trust -- not necessarily a reputation or name recognition.
Good hounds most often are found in the hands of good houndsmen.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Very good post, Dana. I have had very similar issues with puppies I let go. Waste is probably not an appropriate word, but a breeder really does hate to see his creation “wasted”. Just getting people to report back later seems so often to be an issue, even though I specifically ask the new owners to keep me updated. And like you said, it’s hard to find people who will/can take advantage of the puppy’s potential. So many new owners are just that - new to beagles and just don’t have the experience to get that hound up to what it should be. And there is such a turnover in beaglers. People who are gung ho today are getting out tomorrow, it seems. It’s so great to have those repeat owners who have gotten hounds from you before and have been good to stay in touch with reports. They are “gold” to a breeder.

[warddog]

There is one other BIG twist into this and that is the fact that there just isn't as many places for "hunters" to run dogs. Those that are available are run to death and if there are not beaglers or clubs maintaining habitat or at least making sure rabbits are there one can "HUNT" nearly all day and find little to nothing to run. It is very difficult to do pups justice with this type of situation. The one or two spots we had that was NOT state ground holds very few rabbits these days and when running on state ground a lot of it has to be pounded get a race going. There is one place that is kept up by a beagle club that has running only, NO HUNTING, but one nearly has to draw a number to run in it as it is where a lot go to run. The rabbits in it are run to death and dog smart. No it's not an enclosure but they still get dog smart when pressured day in and day out. I keep saying that those who have areas available are lucky these days and should be thankful they do and even though I live in a very rural area the old running, hunting grounds are bought up, posted and or leased and what others used to hold small game are farmed right to the roads and fence rows or are of such that are great for deer, turkey, coyote, hawks and owls but not so much rabbits and or quail. Even the quail hunters around here stock a lot of their own birds and I've got a neighbor that does just that as he trials bird dogs and I honestly do not know how with the numbers as they are. I have two females left from what I hunt and they have gotten age without ever having a litter because we have had to roll with the flow and turn more into deer hunting than rabbit hunting but our love is actually the cry of the hounds BUT minus the availability of both the habitat and the game there is not cry. OH, how I long for those days past when rabbit, quail and even pheasant were plentiful while deer and turkeys were few and far between.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Warddog, you described my situation in SE Ohio exactly. Especially in summer when the public hunting is closed. I am lucky that we own 200 acres, but I am trying to figure out how to buy 80-120 more. It’s tough being a hound hunter these days, and not positive for the future. We used to think the animal rights groups would shut us down eventually, but really our biggest concern are other types of hunters who are controlling access to huntable land.

[MasonsBeagles]

I have field trialed in the past but do not consider my self a field trialer. I've entered exactly three trials in the past ten years.
I would say around here that beagle gun hunters far out number field trialers.On the W.M.A. where I run a lot there are two guys that are hard core U.B.G.F. trialers but none of the other beaglers I encounter there trial.
Twenty five years ago when I first moved to Tn. and started going to Little Pack trials it was not unusual for there to be 50+ open dogs entered and I'd end up judging 4-5 casts myself. These days I see results from a bunch of LP hunts with an open entry of ten dogs.It's so much easier now to champion out a dog in that format that you'll see more champions entered than opens.
Last year I raised a litter of ten pups. The only one of them that will possibly be trialed will be the stud owner's.All others went to strictly gun hunters.
In the past 25 years I've raised 14 litters of beagle pups and would say that 95% of those pups went to gun hunters.
Probably the reason for that is because I'm not part of any field trialing "inner circle",not a "regular" at field events and not a promoter.
Guys that are really into field trialing tend to buy their pups from guys they know from trialing and from the dogs that have success at those trials they are attending.
Of the litters I've bred the studs were dogs that most folks had no idea who they were.I used them because i breed for traits - not trends.
As always J.M.H.O.

ive found most often the diamonds in the rough are great bred hounds however the gun hunter has found the traits he desires. There are a few around here that have some great blood tucked back ... unfortunately when a gun hunter gets a good bred pup they tend to say Papers dont run a rabbit and could care less about AKC registering and ultimately kill a blood line.. the down side to the upside...