The American Beagler Forum

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Member No.: 55
Joined: 31-January 05




I am curently starting a kennel and want ed to have a running hound to hunt with while i wait for my pups grow. I wanted to base my foundation blood with woodstock grannpy. I scerched and scerched to find a grannpy breed bitch to run and gun than trial than breed to another ifc hound that I wont mention. Well I found this add for a hound that fit what i wanted. I asked a ton of ?'s and was told this bitch can hunt and run its own rabbit good and close to the line all questions were awnsered from what i wanted to hear. due ti just getting out of the hospital I opted to take his word for the dog and talked him down to $400. I kept the dog inside a week and we bonded good. I took her out to hunt and all she did was follow me around. When I could excape her sight she would open on my scent and track me down. This dog didnt know a rabbit from a goat. I contacted the kennel I got the dog from and told him about what happened he replyed I thought she would come out of it last time i had he out she did the same thing. So he told me to meet him at a place and he would take her back and give me another dog that if he was to sell he would have to get$1000 for. she is very shy and hard to pick up and warned me about taking deer. he told me I could gunn and trial her untill she came into heat than I would have to give her back to be breed and i could have she back with all the papers after the pups were weened. I didnt have much of a choice. This dog is so man shy that when we had her in the house for 2 weeks all she did was hide under the bed. I finaly got the nerve up to hunt this dog solo. this dog did the same exact thing i even jumped the hare and brought her over to show her the track and she smelled it than hid under a jack pine. than my wife tried same thing . the dog wanted nothing to do with running. she didn't perk up untill she saw the truck than she was pulling on the leed to get to the dog box. I called the owner of the dog and told him what happened and ether i wanted her papers so she could be my brood bitch or my money back. we met the next day and he gave me my money back. during all of our conversations i mentioned to him that i was on social security disableity because i broke my back at work from being blown off a telephone pole. Well I was still looking for a running bitch that i could run and gun and trial also breed to that ifc stud . I found another bitch straight out of grannpys owner/breeder he told me I could buy her and I was so excited but this time I wanted to see her run first but the blood was even better than the other two bitches I somewhat owned. Today I get a letter from the owner of the new bitch i was going to buy who happens to be a good friend of the other kennel owner. He tells me in this e-mail that he wont sell me the houind because I am "DISABLED" that is 100% toatal discrimination. I am so mad im about to jump mout of my skin!! I think i am going to write akc but that wont do any good ether i dont think. Maybe I should find a lawyer. I wrote them back today and if i dont get an apoligy I am going to tell my story on every board and reveal thier names. what would you do? stay tuned for the names and kennel names of the people that discrimnate against someone because they have been perminately injured because they were tring to make a living. Maybe I should just lay on the couch and watch tv and dream about running beagles again. because that is what they think i should be doing well they can go pee up a rope ! I only have one life and although it is challenged one I have to make the best of it and if i choose to be a beagler well I think I have every right to do so. I deserve to have a life but I guess I am unwelcome to the beagling world. thanks for listening and any commints would be happily accepted and if anyone knows where I scould find a well breed brood bitch could you let me know ? I think I have a right to belong to this sport if I so choose .I never but anyones dogs down not even the ones that i gave back. As a matter of fact i told him the may do great in a pack but lack confidence to find thier own game. I dont deserve this treatment after all I thought I was an american. I didnt take a bullet for our country but i would I did however take one for my family by tring to make an honest living. sorry so long but I am extreemly upset about the whole thing wouldn't you be?

sorry my wife was logged in and this was written by me

here is the copy of the actual e-mail I got today after the guy who I will name soon told this kennel that i took 2 of this worthless hounds back. come to find out they are real good friends. here is is the letter


To : cableguy323@hotmail.com
Subject : Re: BEAGLE


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Dave
It would seem to me if you already have a pup from Granppy bloodline you dont really need anymore a guy like you can get too many to handle seeing you are disabled and you are on disability maybe you have enough to handle already
I've decided not to get rid of the bitch i mentioned to you after all decided she is more important to me than she would be to anyone like you.
Thanks for your inquiry but i've decided i dont have anything for you at this time

John Otruba




I would like to take this chance to thank Mr sean bickford of foothill kennels for driving me and my family out of this sport . we all cant be as perfict as you and have dogs that only run when they are in a pack and be physicaly sturdy to run hounds. someday you will ether meet your maker or worse have you back broken and struggle to even walk and worked so hard to be able to do the things I love to do hunt,fish,play with my children and run dogs.. Lets see what willpower you both would have to be in my shoes. than acheved so much and and am proud of how I am today. than have some jerks beat you into the groung because you are disabled. be warned everyone DO NOT DO ANY BUSINESS WITH FOOTHILL OR FULCOUNT KENNELS. thank you for running me out of a sport I love.

If you are going to let two people bother you , you will never enjoy any thing. If you truely love the sport you will continue. Something doesn't sound right here, I would like to hear both sides of the story.

Can't really see how these two fellas ran you out of the sport. Maybe things did not work out quite like you had planned them to,still no reason to give up something you say you love so much. Look around and find yourself another dog.

Dave H,
It takes all kinds I guess. There are lots of good people and families of hounds out there so don't let a couple of whatever you want to call them ruin it for you. If I were you I would be glad I got my money back and got rid of the sorry SOB's before you got stuck with them. Many people are not so lucky! Chalk it up to experience and move on. You should be able to find the right hounds and people after doing a little homework. Best of luck to you in your search and don't let the dream die.
NYH

Dave H. I agree with the other posts, just keep plucking along and it'll happen for you and remember, you can only be pushed out of something if you let it. Don't let this or anything else get in your way.

As far as the discrimantion would go. You may not like it but they do have the right to sell to whom the wish and for whatever reason they decide.

I sincerly wish you well in all that you do.

Goes

Dave,
You didn't tell me you wanted a running, gun female, just a puppy. I think I have exactly what you want, in addition to the Sport pup. I've got 2 - 1 year old females out of my best gun dogs. The sire is directly out of IFC Melanson's Ranger Dan and IFC Cool Running Sonic and the dam is pure Branko (Ali-Baba and Ninja), no Grannpy! With the results you have had you may want to start looking for something different. Both bitches, are 13", medium-fast speed, have ton's of hunt, run a very good rabbit. Why am I selling, you know why, I'm keeping 2 Sport females. I guarrenty when you turn these girls loose you'll not see them on a path. I would consider 1 of them a very good jump dog and the other a good jump dog. The VaBeagler has a litter mate, big male that he loves, in fact he may be selling most of his other dogs and buying more pups from me. Let me know if interested.
Bob Keese

Maybe John Otruba was doing you a favor instead of discriminating. Maybe, since he knew that you had tried two hounds from his line that you did not like, he was trying to avoid another disappointment on your part. Most responsible breeders want their hounds in the hands of beaglers who like similar hounds.
I have never met John O or Sean Bickford but Lewis Long in Kentucky has a lot of the Granppy bloodline and his hounds, that I have seen, show none of the traits you described.
Every other report that I have seen gave the Granppy line good marks. I bred a bitch to a double bred grandson of Granppy, through Fulcount Jack, all bred by John O. The bitch whelped three pups. All are started and are good prospects at eight months. They run a closer smoother line that I expected. They are not shy and they hunt.
Good luck and I hope you find hounds that make you happy. There are a lot of outstanding Beaglers that frequent these boards so stick with it someone will get you going with a line that you can enjoy.

its more of a back stabbing issue that gets passed on an on untill I am no good rotten sob and people I never met wont even talk to me because of this issue. I still will beagle but Never buy anything someone else doesn't want.


the bottom line is we had a deal on the dog that all of a sudden i am not good enough to own her because i am disabled and already have a puppy.

How many of all you out there own more than one dog out there?

How many of you out there wouldn't be offended from the email I receved.

My wife got a pm from one of the parties saying he will contact a lawyer. And knew our exact address from the paper work. Now I take that as a threat to me and my family. So mr sean bickford you can expect a certified letter comming from my lawyer that will contain a no tresspass order and an order to be no closerthan 100 feet from my family or residence.Tthis may also include any trial I wish to go to you wont be able to be there. All i asked was for an appoligy and i would keep it under my hat but you had to start a war you will not win.

Last I knew there wasnt anything wrong posting the exact words that were sent to me.
I also have the saved emails where the party told me that the dogs could run its own rabbit and hunt ect.ect.

so where am I wrong to warn about so called sportsmen who lie and discriminate me because My physical differances?
probably right that it was a blessing in discise.
only thing thats differnt is they now have to be responcable you their words and actions. The last word will be mine when i hang up the phone with akc

AGAIN POSTED UNDER MY WIFE'S HANDLE!!! SHE NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO SIGN OUT WHEN FINISHED ON THE BOARDS!!!

In my opinion I think your over reacting. I dont know anyone involved but they own the dog and can sell it or not sell it to whoever they want. Just like you can buy from whoever you want or dont want to.

Dave, partner, I wish we could somehow take away this pain and anxiety that you are going through. It seems that you have had to overcome allot to get to where you are now and the last thing you needed was someone to come along and find yet another way to bring you back down.
You must find a way to let this go, find piece and move on.


With that being said I pose this question for you.

Let's say someday you have a litter of pups. You have bonded with them and have grown attatched but the time has come for them to go off to their new homes. A couple comes over and sees your pups, they seem nice enough, they have had beagles in the past and raised them until they passed on. They have some fantastic refferences and they have the cash you want for the pup.
here's the catch, you know a beagles lifespan is between 12-15 years respectfully. But the couple are both in their mid 60's! You think to yourself for moment that if this pup goes with them that would put them in their upper 70's to early 80's by the time the pup is reaching its lifespan expectancy. After some conversation you find that they have no children and both their siblings have since long passed.
Would you sell them the pup?
If you answer yes, then I ask you what will happen to the pup when they pass?
If you say no! Then I ask you isn't that age discrimination.

Either way it is a decision that YOU and YOU alone have to make and also have to live with forever.

Partner, Let it go and move on with your life.

Goes

Dave:

I am curious as hell / what happened from the time you posted the web message below until you became so unsatisified????? Sounds to me like you dont know what you want and cant tell if a hound meets your approval for a long time afterward. The posting BY YOU does not sound anything like what you posted here above ?????????????

Please explain????????????




A couple weeks back I was searching hard after saving up to get back into beagleing. I saw an add at rabbithuntingonline.com about a hound that was exactly the bloodline size and sounded like the beagle I wanted and back when I was forced out of beagleing due to club closure and divorce the big name for the sire to have and most everyhound placing and the hottest cross most have ever seen was with this bitch they called black cher. Of course everyone knows now I am talking about nat.fc woodstock grannpy. I replied to this add and ask a ton of questions that were awnsered as honest as could be. The only issue was this man Sean Bickford was like most of us and put away the dog leads and graped our bows, and rifles to fill our freezer with vennison. I bought this hound sight unseen with a promise from sean that she may have some cobbwebs from being kenneled for so long and she would snap back to where she was this summer. He gave me a guarentee that by the end of febuary I wasnt happy he would make it right. Well I woeked this dog for two weeks and She just wasnt proving her self to me and gave Sean one e-mail about my progress with her and he just wanted me to be happy. He met me the next day with one of his best hounds and told me he would sell this hound for more than double of what I paid for the other dog. Sean just handed her to me. I just want to say that Sean is a true sportsman and a real gentleman, a man of his honor and word. There isnt many left out there who would do this just put your self in his shoes what would you all have done? be honest most ( and I know alot who would) walk away counting the money but not foothill kennels Sean just wanted me to be happy with a dog and have fun gunning with this dog. This dog he had no intention to sell period. I truely think that Sean bickford of foothills kennels deserves this wether he would think so or not. We need more Seans out there in this sport. I didn't have to say a word or put a post out here for the world to see but he deserves it and is a TRUE huondsman. Thank you Sean!!! didnt meen to embarse you but anyway oh well if if did.....Yours in sport
Dave Hill

Wow, that is the other side of the spectrum isn't it.